Why Playing It Safe Won’t Change the World | Second Thoughts
The Cost of Indifference Series: Episode 6
Previous episode: Sheltered by Similarity | How to Tell if You're in a Bubble with Shannon and David Steeves https://journey-with-care.captivate.fm/episode/s04e05/
Description
Is familiarity, not fear, what's holding us back from true change?
Wendi Park and Johan Heinrichs dive into this thought-provoking idea while reflecting on their conversation with David and Shannon Steeves. They discuss the richness that comes from stepping outside comfort zones and embracing diversity, drawing from Johan's personal experiences in culturally varied communities and Wendi's encounters in the Middle East. The conversation challenges listeners to break out of echo chambers and engage with different perspectives and communities, emphasizing that growth and love flourish through discomfort.
Time Stamps
[00:00] Confronting Cultural Insularity
[05:43] Celebrating Diversity and Unity
[08:07] Embracing Intentional Diversity
[11:54] Middle East Peace Mediation Journey
[15:19] Breaking Church Echo Chambers
[19:43] "The Jesus Way: Civil Discourse"
[21:09] Care Lingo TBRI
CareImpact Podcast Group: https://www.facebook.com/share/g/19rkPGbD7C/
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Wendi Park:
We can be with people that don't look like us, and we can even get accusations from others thinking, oh, look who she's associating or he's associating with. We can do that. That is the Jesus way. That is how we are going to see growth within the church.
Johan Heinrichs:
Because we're all in really big trouble if Jesus only served people he agreed with.
Wendi Park:
Mhmm.
Johan Heinrichs:
This is Journey with Care, a podcast by Care Impact where curious Canadians find inspiration to love others well through real life stories and honest conversations. What if the biggest thing holding us back isn't fear, but familiarity? What if staying in our comfort zone keeps us from fully living out our faith? We're in our second thoughts episode, Wendy. We are having a conversation about our previous conversation with David and Shannon Steeves. After our talk, I kept coming back to this. What are we missing when we only surround ourselves with people who think like us, worship like us, or live like us? And maybe more importantly, how do we break out of those bubbles? So, you wanna kick off this conversation, our second thoughts episode, which if you're new to this podcast, we're reflecting on our previous conversation wanting to take the content a little bit deeper. Maybe having those conversations we can't have in front of our guests. I don't know.
Wendi Park:
What a conversation it really was. David and Shannon were a delight to have. A young married couple, very diverse. Talk about bursting bubbles, getting out of comfort zones. Bubbles were popping all over in their story, Johan, in the way they found each other, as an American and Canadian, but David coming from two cultures prior, three cultures, and and you'll have to pick up their story to to catch the details. And Shannon and David, how they're working through their marriage, how they're working through denominationalism and different thoughts, and even Shannon as she's taken on a role on our team, crossing the the barriers between social services and the most vulnerable people in our city of Winnipeg and the local churches. We could pick on so many areas of their story to say, oh, that's what it means to step out of your comfort zone. But, Johan, what did you get out of it?
Johan Heinrichs:
It made me think a little bit about my upbringing. We moved from Saskatchewan to Winnipeg, and my dad actually pastored, I like to say, a Jamaican black church even though my dad's a white, Pentecostal evangelical guy. But our church mostly consisted of a black community. It brought us some of those thoughts, and even when they got into talking about their different church experiences, I thought about, hey, what are my church experiences and what are the things I've brought with me to the new church expressions and the new jobs that I've had. Just really sitting with that, it's like, what have I brought with me that I've changed, I've adjusted things I don't wanna keep, things I I wanna hold on to?
Wendi Park:
Yeah. I think we often don't even realize how insular our thinking is until we've crossed different thresholds where we've had to stretch our own imagination for how life actually operates. Sharing my experience, I grew up white Mennonite, very isolated, monocultural, I would say, for the most part. But being introduced as a young child into different cultures but even still, I I was still the person in power. My culture dominated the the room. And it it's taken me on a journey when I was going in South America and Middle East and just being the minority, but still realizing I'm carrying a certain assigned power I didn't like. I felt discomforted by I was also assaulted day after day with things that annoyed me, and I didn't understand the culture to, now in my own family being the only white Mennonite cultured person around our table and still realizing there's still things within me that I need to confront. It's not to say that my upbringing is bad.
Wendi Park:
I have a lot to add value into conversation, but realizing that my way isn't the only way. How about you, Johan? My thinking is different. I can't go back to that girl that was five years old in Altona, Manitoba in kindergarten. I I can't be that person anymore. Because when you enter into different cultures, entered into different denominations, and things like that, it changes you, I would like to say for the better. What what are your thoughts, going through different cultural experiences?
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. I mean, again, when we were in Saskatchewan, my dad was pastoring an indigenous church. So most of our community was indigenous. It wasn't officially indigenous, but that's the people that he had. And then we moved to Winnipeg, and it was a Jamaican church. So two very different cultural expressions with my white dad pastoring. So I I grew up with different cultural experiences and, like, even when David talked about I think about these different cultural experiences and I want to learn from each of them and bring the good with me. Just realizing that that Christianity, the kingdom isn't a Western religion that we've kinda grown up in, And realizing there's many different expressions and many different ways to worship and different communities, I I just love I love that fabric that the Lord weaves us in it, and there's not one right one.
Johan Heinrichs:
It's like that fragrance going before heaven of worship. God wants all the different fragrances. It'll be really boring if it if it all smelled the same, if it all sounded the same. So I I just really think bringing in all these different expressions are is just a representation of what the lord has in store for us when we get to heaven.
Wendi Park:
Absolutely. I I think one of the things that I took away from our last interview with Shannon and David and from our own experiences that we've discussed over coffee is that there is such richness in diversity. In different ethnic diversities, in different denominations, we get to encounter one of the things I love about my job is I get to sit around tables that are Baptist, Pentecostal, Vineyard, Catholic, diocese. They're so and, like, sitting around different nucleus of tables that often think alike for the most part, that that's what unites them together. But being able to be sort of a neuron between cells sitting at different tables and celebrating the diversity, and that could go with cultural groups too. There's a a a quote. I think it's a bit adapted, but from Henry now, and he talks about diversity and how can we love across diversity. And he says something like this.
Wendi Park:
Love begins when we risk being known by people who are different than us. And I think that's important. Like, it's not just about having a parade of diversity as if that becomes our goal, our end goal. But what does it mean to actually love another person, not just in my image or what how they fit into my world, but how do we actually just show up at the table and love each other in our diversity, but we have to get away from just simply our own kind, the places where we feel comfortable, but sitting within diversity.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. Getting uncomfortable. Right? Mhmm. Yeah. I think we need to put ourselves in uncomfortable situations in in order to learn how to do that, get out of those comfort zones, to be able to learn how to love people properly. I mean, I've had the privilege of growing up where my parents fostered over 50 kids, different diverse backgrounds, all sorts of cultural backgrounds. So I've had to learn to love and live with different cultures and different expressions and whole different lifestyles, but not everybody has that opportunity. Sometimes we're stuck in those echo chambers where the person sitting beside us is very much like us.
Johan Heinrichs:
So how do we get churches out of their comfort zone and how do we get them learning to love these other diverse expressions?
Wendi Park:
I know our society, we often find ourself with like minded people who think like us, who worship like us, and and and it's very easy by default we wanna find. I think there's a sense of security and camaraderie in that, but I think we have to be intentional. There's no one in Canada that can say, oh, I don't have the opportunity for diversity. We have to be intentional about seeing other people as our neighbor. We have to see that other person and not just be blocked out by fear. What if they don't like me or what if we don't think alike? God invites us into those places, and and we have nothing to fear in creating space around our table. And also not just waiting for people to come to us, but going into circles, being intentional, being a humble presence, in these places, not to assimilate and pretend, oh, now I'm Jamaican or now I'm South American from the from Bolivia, for example. But I can live within among them and learn different ways and practices and world views and learn to appreciate the other.
Johan Heinrichs:
So why do we build up these bubbles if it's keeping us from diverse experiences that could potentially be exciting?
Wendi Park:
I would say we probably, deep down inside, fear discomfort. Like, who really wants to be discomforted. Right? We want something that's familiar. We want something that's safe, but it really challenges our security. But I believe that if we are secure in Christ, if our attachment is securely rooted in Christ, who by very nature of coming out of his comfort showed us the way of discomfort. He was always breaking social bubbles. If you you look through scripture, he was eating with outsiders. He was talking to the marginalized.
Wendi Park:
He was challenging power struggles and structures within society, and we are invited to that. But I think we we've got to get through that notion of feeling safe is where god is. No. Actually, God is on the margins. And so if we wanna find Jesus, it's like Matthew 25. When did you see me hungry? When did you see me in prison? Who wants to be among the hungry? Who wants to go into prison? I've I've volunteered there. It's not a a most comforting place. But Jesus says, that's where I'm found.
Wendi Park:
And often we're looking for Jesus in the clubhouse, in the church, where we feel safe, where we we have safe theology. We use a lot of safety talk. And our god is not safe. We know from Aslan. Right? But he is good.
Johan Heinrichs:
But I think we know inherently that going through uncomfortable experiences actually helps us to grow. It's like, why do we choose certain experiences to say, you know what, I wanna stay comfortable in this area. I don't really wanna grow in this area. So I think maybe maybe the question is what areas do I wanna grow? And then you take the answer to that question and say, okay, what areas do I need to get uncomfortable in order to do that? Mhmm. So like, do we wanna grow spiritually? Okay. What's gonna make you uncomfortable? How are you gonna grow spiritually? Because you learn from being uncomfortable and you learn from mistakes and taking risks. But it seems like we're not willing to do that in in so many areas.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. And so that is an invitation. People will have different kinds of invitations right around them what that looks like. I couldn't tell every listener, do this x, y, and z, and then you are gonna grow, or then you are gonna be more open minded, or you're going to love others better.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. It looks different for all of us. Right?
Wendi Park:
It it is different. I I know one of the times, if I can share, I was invited to go to The Middle East on a peace mediation delegation tour. Now that was a a learning opportunity that I had when I was in seminary. I wanted to get out of the classroom because, like, I can read textbooks. I can talk to theologians in tweed suits, but I actually wanted to be in the Israel, in Palestine to see what has actually happened. I I went there on a biblical, like, quest to understand the Bible better, but I also wanted to understand in my global studies what is actually happening on the ground. And so I left my textbooks behind. I packed my little backpack and went there, one summer from peace mediation.
Wendi Park:
And and I did some some touring on my own. And this is during an era when there were and still is it's not tour season right now, and it wasn't back then either. There's always wars, and and that was a really, time of unrest. And I sat down with soldier Israeli soldiers and had conversations with them. I stayed with a Palestinian family in the West Bank and and learned their stories. I got to visit with a family that was grieving because they had just lost their son and their brother and their uncle. He was a suicide bomber. I talked with a family who lost their son, a Palestinian boy getting bread and was shot, by snipers.
Wendi Park:
I also went into settlements and Jewish settlements that had taken over the land. I sat with Christians and a huge uprising of church believers within the Palestinian. I sat with them, and I also on the Israeli, the the messianic Christians and Jews. That was my purpose, to sit with and have chai. Boy, did I learn to love chai. I came away from that experience, though, seeing Jesus in each one of them. And now when I look in the news, I know they they love to do black and white. This is what is right.
Wendi Park:
If you're gonna be good, do the it's always more complicated. And I think it starts with a thousand cups of chai of just sitting and listening and hearing and relating. And I feel that Jesus taught me that. In the Garden Of Gethsemane, I was literally there talking with people. And that's what what Jesus was teaching me and inviting me to. And I can tell you, I learned a lot more out of that peace mediation delegation trip. I wasn't there bringing peace. I didn't obviously, there's still like, I couldn't be the hero there.
Wendi Park:
We we really need the Lord as hero there. But listening, it was very transformative for my life.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. And this series is called the cost of indifference. So I was thinking about, okay, what's the cost of not having these diverse experiences? And again, it comes down to growth, I believe.
Wendi Park:
Mhmm.
Johan Heinrichs:
It's like a plant in soil. If it sits in that same soil for too long, it has used up all those nutrients and there's nothing new coming into it. Right? Yeah. That's why so many farmers use crop rotation or they use diff they do different crops every year because it needs new nutrients in that soil, new experiences to be able to grow and be healthy. So I think the cost of indifference in in not diversifying and not getting these new experiences, not getting uncomfortable is gonna be lack of growth. You're gonna be stagnant. You're gonna be stuck in that echo chamber and not and not grow.
Wendi Park:
Let's land the plane a little bit on that. I like what you're saying there, but how do we help churches get out of echo chambers and yet still hold their distinctives? And and we're not asking churches to change their theologies or their practices, but to grow and to create room for others in the community. How do we actually do that? Because there's a bit of territorialism around, well, this is what we believe. And yet, can I just be honest with you? The more I'm in different denominations and and around the tables, I love them all. But when we we stay within our denominations and we only affirm each other based on what we all believe to be true and we don't expand out and and we don't have room for listening to other perspectives. Don't get me wrong. I've done homeschooling out of necessity too, but we become a bunch of denominational homeschoolers. We don't get out.
Wendi Park:
It it becomes insular, and we start acting weird in community. We start saying things that are destructive, not because I I don't think any denomination wants to be a bigot, but it sure sounds a lot like that. It sure sounds offensive, or it sure sounds territorial. It sure sounds, like a power struggle when it comes out because we're not necessarily in touch. We don't necessarily translate. And and I'm not saying denominations are bad. I think there's actually beauty in diversity. But there is a huge danger, and I see that played out.
Wendi Park:
And the cost of indifference is in the community, not necessarily within the club around that table. People are will affirm each other. There's confirmation bias. We're like, oh, wow. We're we're we're endorsing certain behaviors and beliefs and even vocabulary that just don't translate into community. I don't think Jesus would have necessarily talked like that with the good Samaritan.
Johan Heinrichs:
I think there's a few things that we can do. I keep in thinking about church leaders. First of all, get around a table and have conversations like this about stuff. Mhmm. But the other thing, like, do what Jesus did and serve one another. It's not necessarily about, you know what, let's be ecumenical, let's do this unity thing and all get together and just worship together, but actually wash the feet of another pastor that you don't necessarily agree with or you don't have the same theology with. Like, let's learn to serve one another. And I think that that getting low, like, that's that's what's gonna cause transformation because that's what Jesus did.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. And and we can learn from each other without losing our identity. I know my theology gets challenged every time I can get and my worldview gets challenged every time I encounter other people. That doesn't mean I just assimilate, and now all of a sudden now I have that theology. I think if we're rooted in Christ, the holy spirit can navigate that for us. He can be trusted in those situations. We're we're not gonna get cooties because we work alongside another denomination that thinks maybe vastly and polar opposite than we do on a certain issue. It's when we idolize those issues, those theologies, those doctrines that we wanna fight for, we miss out.
Wendi Park:
The indifference there is that we miss out on serving the other, serving each other, and loving each other, the person that we disagree with. But, ultimately, the vulnerable person, they don't get served because we're too consumed with trying to set the world straight to think like us, to behave like us, rather than working together.
Johan Heinrichs:
And we gotta get over ourselves saying, you know what? If I serve this person, other people might think I agree with him. We don't need we don't need to agree with someone to serve them. We just need to love them and get to know them a little bit. And I think then the differences don't matter so much because we've seen the person that Jesus sees.
Wendi Park:
Amen to that. I I know I've been challenged by people to say, k. Wendy, you're you're going to government table. You're you're you're working with organizations that are not not necessarily faith based. You're working with that denomination. Do you know what they believe? Several times, I have the burn marks and the scar marks to prove it. I've been burned at the stake for those things, but I will always side for the vulnerable. And it and it doesn't change who I am and who I believe god to be, but there's always a sense of mystery.
Wendi Park:
There's always a sense of wonder. I don't have the corner on religion, but God sure does. He can be trusted. It's not fun to stick your neck out. However, I believe that's the Jesus way has always had us to be with the vulnerable, to sit in discomfort, to have conversations and learn to have civil conversations. And now in a a political time where we're we're hard pressed to find civil conversations. Right? But we're challenged to love the other, to have civil discourse, not always agreeing, with the other, and that's how we can grow together. But if at the bottom line is that we're gonna love them no matter what, it changes the outcome.
Wendi Park:
We can do hard things. We can have hard conversations. We can sit in discomfort. We can be with people that don't look like us, and we can even get accusations from others thinking, oh, look who she's associate or he's associating with. We can do that. That is the Jesus way. That is how we are going to see growth within the church.
Johan Heinrichs:
Because we're all in really big trouble if Jesus only served people he agreed with. Mhmm. Let's land on the listener challenge for this week then. So think of someone that you are very different from, whether it's theologically or even culturally, and think of a way that you can serve that person or organization. And and do it. At least do it once. Try it. And that's gonna be the challenge for this week.
Johan Heinrichs:
But now it's time for that Care lingo segment. Here we go. CareLingo.
Wendi Park:
Today, I'm gonna choose an acronym that sometimes gets thrown around in caregiver talk, TBRI. So, Johan, can you tell me what you think of when I say the word TBRI?
Johan Heinrichs:
It's not that hard because I came onto the team a couple years ago now, and I kept hearing this term, and I had no idea what you guys were talking about in the middle of a conversation. So this is a good one for our listeners to hear because I think we've probably thrown around the podcast in previous episodes. I think so. Yeah. So in true Johan fashion, I got two options, I think. TBRI, if I was hearing it for the first time, I might think too busy, rarely involved. You know, in the caregiver space, sometimes you we get so busy, that we'd
Wendi Park:
Like TMI. Too busy, rarely involved. It could be a good text.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. Exactly. It's like Yeah. That guy is TBRI. He's too busy, rarely involved. What Care Impact's doing, you know? We don't want TBRI people, connected to Care Impact. Oh, no. That is not even straight.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. And then there's the other one, TBRI. Totally burnt out running on instinct. Now I I sometimes relate to this one a little bit more. I'm not totally burnt out, but, you know, sometimes you get busier times, like Mhmm. When that when that next podcast episode is due and you haven't started the edit yet, I'm running on instinct. Just, you know, click, click, click, click, click, click, and this episode's getting out tomorrow no matter what. Yeah.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yes. So TBRI. So what is the real definition?
Wendi Park:
Well, let me translate here for you. I can put it's something that I utilize all the time. It it it's a filter that I use and we use as a a team here at Caro Impact, but it refers to trust based relational intervention. So t, trust be based relational intervention. It comes out of the Karen Purvis Institute for Child Development. So, originally, this is a term TBI, trust based relational intervention was referred to child development, particularly with foster kids, kids coming from difficult places in in adoption and some beautiful training out of that. Some of our team members have that training. Also, is the basis for, trauma free world, which we are doing trauma care, training across Canada using TBRI.
Wendi Park:
So it's a trauma informed approach that is designed to help people in hard places heal through connection. Relationships is so important, and empowering them. And and being able to redirect where they are going. It's going beyond the behavior looking what are the what's behind the behavior that's causing this person such distress. And it's not about managing those behaviors. It's looking at the root causes, who have gone through significant loss or trauma, neglect. I would go further than that. I utilize it actually in how I negotiate with government or how I sit at the table with pastors.
Wendi Park:
Those that are actually have fear responses, I'm like, k. What's going behind that behavior? The way people are are behaving, how do I connect with them? How do I relationally connect? Because Care Impact is all about breaking relational poverty across these sectors. And so we have to learn how do we connect before we bring, some possible solutions, direction, and supports into those areas. Because it's not just about fixing people, it's about connecting with people, and there's actually healing. And it's beautiful that it's it's when science catches up with God. There's a lot of neuroscience involved with TBRI, but it's all biblically based, and it's something that, is changing families. It's changing social systems. I I have asks from social services if we can bring some training in this nature.
Wendi Park:
So that's TBRI.
Johan Heinrichs:
You have it. Trust based relational intervention. So, listeners, if you think you might know someone that needs to know what TBRI is, send them this episode and continue to share the podcast. Again, we are on Facebook. We got a Care Impact podcast group if you wanna go on there and get the latest updates. And maybe you have a word you wanna add add to this Care Lingo segment or whatever else, join our community there. And I think that's it, Wendy. We will see you next week.
Johan Heinrichs:
Later. Thank you for joining us on Journey with Care. To get more information on weekly episodes, upcoming opportunities, or to connect with our community, visit journeywithcare.ca, or find Care Impact on Facebook and Instagram. Or just check the show notes for these links and all the links related to this episode. Share your thoughts, leave us a message, and be part of a network of individuals journeying in faith and purpose. Together, let's discover how we can make a meaningful impact.
