Second Thoughts | Sacred Spaces or Sacred Cows?
From Programs to Presence | With Erinn Oxford: https://journey-with-care.captivate.fm/episode/s04e15/
Description
What does it look like to let go of sacred spaces when they become sacred cows holding us back from true community?
Wendi Park and Johan Heinrichs reflect on their conversation with Erin Oxford, digging into the tension between presence and programming, buildings and relationships, and how our resources can either empower or entrench our ministry efforts. They share honest stories of surrendering physical spaces—whether a church building or a grand ministry centre—to refocus on relational impact and spiritual formation together. From the need for vulnerability in leadership to the surprising blessings found in mutuality with those we serve, this conversation challenges the church to reimagine how we steward what we have and who we are for the good of our neighbours.
Time Stamps
[00:00] "See Beyond Labels"
[04:49] "Embracing Vulnerability in Ministry"
[06:23] "Balancing Family and Ministry"
[10:49] Community Support and Sacrifice
[13:33] "Trusting Intuition Over Buildings"
[18:47] "Fasting from Busyness"
[20:13] "Dream Room: Community Visionary Space"
[23:02] CareLingo: Voluntourism
CareImpact Podcast Group: https://www.facebook.com/share/g/19rkPGbD7C/
-
Wendi Park:
And that has allowed us to put all our expenses into building community, into those relationships, into pouring into staffing that could make real change happen rather than making mortgage payments.
Johan Heinrichs:
This is Journey with Care, a podcast by Care Impact where curious Canadians find inspiration to love others well through real life stories and honest conversations. What if the most transformative thing we can offer is not a program, but ourselves? Hey. We're in our second thoughts episode just coming off an interview with, Wendy's friend, Erin Oxford. So Wendy, it's been a few days since we've chatted with her. Has there been anything from that conversation that has sat with you?
Wendi Park:
Yeah. I always love having conversations with Erin. She's like an old lost friend that when you pick up a conversation, it feels like you've never left. I haven't even known her that long, but, she's a kindred. And I just really appreciate just her soft presence even with us. Like, we talk about presence over programs, and I feel like we had presence over podcasts, with her in conversation, some of the examples that she just gently shared. This is life, what it looks like in Downtown Toronto with her ministry, and I was just moved and encouraged without the need to do, do, do, and formula, formula. And, wow, that's an amazing program to simply be present with her.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. There's a few takeaways I've had. I mean, I I did like what she talked about with storytelling. I think you brought the topic into the conversation with her where, they have these storytelling nights. And that just Mhmm.
Wendi Park:
It
Johan Heinrichs:
made me think about even doing this podcast, how it's so important to have these stories. Because when we understand, when we know people's stories, that's when the most compassion comes out. It's really hard to have compassion for someone that you haven't seen, the path that they've walked. You haven't stepped into their shoes.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. Because otherwise, we we think of people to be fixed or we see the presenting issue or the the thing that people have categorized them in for, but we may not know that they're an excellent cook. Or we may not know that they're just so brilliant. We might just see them as a label of homelessness or a label of poverty or label of child welfare, and we miss the beauty, the giftedness, because we haven't taken the opportunity to see the person. And that's what Erin really has challenged our listeners, challenged myself to be reminded of. Let's first be with before we think where we go from here because that is actually a cocreated thing as we're in relationship. We figure those things out. It's not like we just sit there and do nothing.
Wendi Park:
But together in relationship, we're able to figure out what does it mean to be in community with each other.
Johan Heinrichs:
And it's not like this is something that you can only do if it comes naturally to you. Like Mhmm. I was reflecting on this how how far I've come in the last ten years. I I basically I might be the wrong person to talk about this because I literally wrote a book almost on the topic of Well, then you're the
Wendi Park:
perfect person to talk about this.
Johan Heinrichs:
Ministry over people. I mean, that's not the premise of the book. But there was definitely this underlining thing where I separated, ministry to people and ministry to God as two separate things and definitely put the ministry to God as the number one. And, like, while there's there's truth to that, the wrong part was separating them to begin with. Because I believe that they're supposed to come together. It's the first and second commandment. They're like one another. He doesn't say they're separate from each other.
Johan Heinrichs:
And while my stories and experiences in the book are all valid, part of my life and and my journey, like, even since joining Care Impact, hearing people's stories and the path that they've walked and all these different perspectives, like, I really was in that echo chamber for a long time. It's really made me more of a compassionate person, and and I've been able to see more of God because I've been able to see the reflection of God in so many different people and experiences and how God has worked through many people. And, you know, when you've kinda pushed people to the side and you just put ministry first, you you really miss out on on that personal connection Yeah. On the humanity that God has given us all and the ability to see God's work in other people.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. Johan, I really appreciate your vulnerability and your honesty, your honest reflection because I think if we're all honest, we can identify with where you're coming from and that your book, by the way, was brilliantly written. I I don't think it's at all like, oh, that's no longer true. There's there's so much truth to ministering to God. But I think what what I see here, what you're describing is something that we should all aspire to and all have the humility that you just shared right now and the vulnerability that you just shared on display for me right now in that as we grow in Christ, this is the waters we are swimming in. Doing ministry, that's that's the paradigm that we were born into, and so it's it's no wonder that we wanna minister to God separately from doing outreach ministry. However, as God works within us, I think that's the natural progression of the Holy Spirit in our life. And as he brings people into our life, he continuously shifts our our thinking, expands our thinking, not necessarily, like, changing theological worldviews vastly, but we get to know God in more depth.
Wendi Park:
And what was the turning point? Can you define a turning point or some moments along the way, maybe people that God has put into your path that helped bring Jesus into that relationship that merged the gap so it wasn't just God up here and and people outreach over there. Who were the people in your path that brought that gap together, closed that gap?
Johan Heinrichs:
I think it was it was in my own household seeing how I was putting ministry first and seeing my my family, my own kids not being ministered to and suffering for it. And then being able to transition out of that place into a church community that, where there's something for them, where they're being ministered to by others, being poured into by others, and not and not just relying on me to do it, but actually having friends and and peers that love Jesus and pour into each other. And and just seeing the change in them and and the amount of fruit that I'm seeing in their lives just from being in community with others, it's just been transformative for me to see. In between that time, we we kinda started a little small group, kind of a small house church and just valuing the friendships that I have around me and the people that have walked alongside for so many years and realizing, you know what? The only reason I was able to sustain that is because of those friendships and people that would uphold me and lift me. But putting ministry first, sometimes I grieved not investing as much as I could have in them over the years. And and now I'm just thankful that I can do that a little bit more. And even thinking about John 16, how Jesus said it's better that I go. There's lots of layers to that.
Johan Heinrichs:
But one of them I think is if Jesus was still on earth, he would've just had a crowd following him everywhere. Mhmm. And he was one person when he was on earth. But because he left, he was able to send the Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit to indwell in in his people, so he's actually present with them in community wherever they are. And I think that's his heart, not to have people just following his physical presence everywhere, but to actually have him indwelling and in community, ministering to one another with the holy spirit ministering to us and just seeing the fruit of that.
Wendi Park:
Well and that's a powerful statement, actually. It's a theological positioning, actually, where we aren't just looking to God up in the the clouds and having a holy moment. We're pursuing God in community, that there is so interconnected. And I think that's one of the things that I if I reflect in my life and in in our society, there's a lot on spiritual formation. We can go to bible college. We can go to seminary. We can go to church. And it's a lot about me, myself, and God, but there's not a lot relationally, laterally, across into community.
Wendi Park:
How do we find God? How do we experience God? How do we pursue God? So it's not just a social club. We're not just talking, oh, you you enjoyed hanging out, and therefore, that's a godly thing. Debatably, yes and no. But how do we pursue God in relationship? How do we make him a part of our relationships? And and that's something that our team at Care Impact we've been sitting with, and how do we help close that divide? So we have these church experiences, but then as we're inviting them into, vulnerable situations or or real needed situations in the community with families and children and youth aging out that really need some supports around them, they're inviting community, how do we close the gap? And so we've we've kinda coined the term relational spiritual formation on finding God pursuing God, not just as an outreach project to bring Jesus to people, because they might even have Jesus. They're just falling on hard times. But how do we intentionally pursue Jesus, walk with Jesus into community? And sometimes, oftentimes, it's the very people who are giving that cup of water, visiting that person in prison. That's where we find Jesus. It's Matthew 25 all over again.
Wendi Park:
And I think we have a lot to to grow. And coming back to what Erin was talking about, one of the stories that really, impacted me, and I know, you mentioned it earlier as well, when her community, the Dale community, they did an offering because Erin was in need, with her husband medically ill. And they came together and raised a total of $78 panhandling in whatever ways they could. They wanted to bless Erin, And that stood out to me, how they were wanting to give back and and work with her in relationship. That that spoke of mutuality in my mind.
Johan Heinrichs:
And this was in a community that had a lot of means. Right? Like, they put everything together to just they wanted to support Erin. Even though she had the money raised for the for the surgery, like, this was just this almost felt like a bigger a bigger gift to her because she knew they didn't have it. But, Wendy, you kinda, I mean, Eren talked about how they had to give up a building because they didn't, first of all, bit Oh, yeah. They weren't able to afford it. So it just kinda forced them to grow smaller, which is kinda cool, and it really developed who they are today. You kinda went through a similar situation with Carry Impact part of our roots too, where you gave up a building once. Right? Like so is there a little bit of a is there a little bit of a parallel there as well?
Wendi Park:
Well, I think there is a big takeaway. And and nowhere in our discussion with Erin did she say buildings are bad, get rid of them, and and go sit in sackcloth, because buildings are good. They still use buildings. However, they've they've restructured how they their relationship to buildings because they're you're right. Their budgets. And she said we couldn't afford it. But I would argue a lot of churches, if their priorities were the people, they can't afford it either. Right? A lot of ministries, a lot of churches can't afford buildings.
Wendi Park:
They're costly. However, a lot of churches still pour all their funding, into their their buildings at the expense of reaching people. But we too, we were offered a building. We were in a building renting it very affordably because it was sitting empty. And so we had a really good relationship, and I really appreciate working with them. They were a dwindling congregation willing to to sell it to us at an affordable rate. And I've done building projects in the past for community development projects, and, I thought, wow. This is a really good piece of land, a really good building.
Wendi Park:
We could have a ministry center. So my vision just kicked in overdrive. I had a proposal ready to go. I thought, you know what? This is actually stood a chance to get it all funded. But somewhere along the line, we had already a letter of offer, received as far as sort of our intent to purchase, and they had accepted it. But God really put it on my mind, on my heart to say, Wendy, I don't want you managing buildings. I didn't call you into building management. Yes.
Wendi Park:
You could have many ministries operating out of one building. Yes. It would be a sustainable way. Yes. That's cool, but it's not your mantle to carry. And, being an opportunist, I thought, but are you sure, god? And he always is. Are you sure, god? Because this is an amazing building. We could do a ton of good for many ministries, for many people, but he he shifted us away.
Wendi Park:
And I am so grateful. Like, God can be trusted in those niggles and those nudges even when it's counterintuitive, even when everything stacks up in my favor. And I gave that up, and a few months later, the pandemic happened. So I was super glad that I wasn't sitting with a big empty building. And we had already shifted into remote working, and that has allowed us to put all our expenses into building community, into those relationships, into pouring into staffing that could make real change happen rather than making mortgage payments. And so, yeah, I've been on both sides. I've done a $6,600,000 project in a in a development project that is still running today, and thank goodness there's still green space and buildings and programs running because of it. But I've also exited a building, And I'm working out of my Shasta in my backyard, and I say glory be, because God can use both of it.
Wendi Park:
But both of those, God was directing me for the community. What is his intent? And I think we're not looking for a formula, copy and paste ministries. He's looking for how can we be most intentionally with the people that he's called us to.
Johan Heinrichs:
And I think what we are building, we're building with the intent of people getting together in community and seeing transformation that way. Like, even Yeah. With our neighbor up that we're building, it's a it's a small group experience learning how to love our neighbors better, but it's meant to be done in community with others. This podcast, the stories again, we want people to hear the stories and be able to relate to their neighbors, relate to others in a better way. I mean, at the same time, I'm in a church that has a bunch of buildings. They're doing a lot of really good things and there's, and I don't really have an issue with it. Like, they buy old buildings and refurbish them rather than building new because they want it to pour into the community. So they're doing some really good things.
Johan Heinrichs:
So I think there are ways for us to be able to use buildings better.
Wendi Park:
Well and it's easier said than done because I I know there's plenty of good examples. And if you are one of those ministries or one of those churches that are doing things differently with your building, let us know. Join our our podcast group and and interact with us because you guys are leading the way. There's a lot of churches that have multi churches running out of one building. I think that's awesome across the denominations. I see some churches that have multi programs, nonprofits, and churches, and schools operating even right here in our own city. I have good examples of that. And I think there's so many good uses for our buildings.
Wendi Park:
You're right. We're not against buildings, but I feel that there needs to be a huge release of control. And sometimes buildings can be our sacred cow. Sometimes buildings can be something that, no. This is our ministry. Now this is how we do it. We wanna do programs our way when really what we're creating is multi silos across the city. We wouldn't necessarily see it that way because we're so well invested in our our bubble that we are like, this is it.
Wendi Park:
We're the mecca. But I love the examples when we can open up our buildings to faith based organizations, government programs, others that we can really utilize the bricks and mortar for something so much greater than just simply doing church in community under our own programs and really having control over all those things. And I think we have to reconsider how we are stewarding our buildings, or are we just wanting to have a control in having our little ministry niche in the the community?
Johan Heinrichs:
So it is kinda odd having these essentially, the largest meeting spaces in any city. It's only to be used once or twice a week. It's really strange, actually.
Wendi Park:
It is.
Johan Heinrichs:
So what about that where when we choose productivity and programs and and meetings over presence and being present with people?
Wendi Park:
Yeah. I guess the other thing is we can say, oh, you know what? We have this building. It's seven days. So let's just ramp up the programs. Let's hire people. Let's get the tithes rolling. And it is a bit of a marketing thing within the church. So if we get enough people and we get enough programs, we can make sure we use it twenty four seven, and we can be a hub.
Wendi Park:
Not bad in itself, but then you have to ask yourself, are we just building a community center for ourselves? Is our club just getting busier for our people, or is it actually doing some greater good? Is it being actively present? Is it meeting needs that our community is actually wanting? Is it responding to to those things? Or are we just being busy with our buildings?
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if I have an answer to that. And And I think that's something that we're gonna continue wrestling with. Like, what are we using our buildings for? Are we really serving the community and the people that the Lord has has given us in our sphere of influence in our area of the city? And I believe we're gonna have to account for that one day when we stand before him. I've given you these things. How did you use them?
Wendi Park:
Yeah. And I wonder I wonder if it it also starts, Johan, with fasting from being busy, getting off the treadmill of program, program, program. And it's not an invitation to apathy, but an invitation to stop and be present. Because how can we actually know what is needed in the community? How can we actually discern how our buildings should be used if we don't get off the bandwagon and stop printing bulletins of all the programs? You know? And so and stop filling our websites full of of of programs or an empty building that we're not doing anything. Could we stop and listen and be present with people to discern what we should be putting our hand to, where we should be investing our time with. If we follow Jesus, which we should be, he started with people at the well, with the with the leper, with the people. He he hung out with the people and just responded. It sounds so simple, but I dare the church to do that.
Johan Heinrichs:
And Erin talked about this too where she went to her community to ask, hey. What do you wanna see with this ministry? Like, what what do you think is possible? She talked about how she had to do that dance of what is possible and what they wanna see. And and that might be a good question for us to ask. What you know what? We have these resources. We have this building. We have this community. These people that are willing to pour into their surroundings, their neighborhoods. Yeah.
Johan Heinrichs:
What is possible?
Wendi Park:
Well, I can tell you from experience when I was, working in an old dilapidated building in in a core area of Winnipeg. And we were literally having, like, our roof cave in and mold, and it was it it needed to it was condemned. And we needed to but that place was so needed, a a needed area to be present in. I remember filling one of the rooms we dedicated to a dream room, and we put lined the walls all with paper, rolls of white paper. We put a bunch of markers. And what the message that we said to all the people in our programs and in in the community, we said, welcome to the dream room. Come in anytime that the the building is open. We want you to graffiti these walls full of ideas of what you need, what you envision, not just what you need, but what you envision a flourishing community should look like.
Wendi Park:
And so we had from little kids doing coloring on the walls and pictures of a playground to grandma's cougombs that were expressing their heart's desire of what they saw flourishing communities looking like or the the memories that they wanted to bring back that would bring health to our community and vitality to the community. We put that all together. Boy, was that a happening, buzzing place. It was so fun. And I realized, man, right around us, we could have come up with, like, oh, we're gonna do this, that, and the other thing. And they're they're all the traditional what you should do to solve, fix a community. But here were some innovative, amazing ideas. And what that did in the development process for the the rebuild of the new building, one, they were part of me coming to funders and saying, this isn't just my wish list.
Wendi Park:
This is what our community has spoken, and this is why they want these things. But you know what the best thing, Johan, that was vivid in my mind was when we had the grand opening day, and we invited community to walk through and tour their building. And I could overhear these people say, oh, this is what I put in for. Oh, yeah. We we talked about this. This is exactly what we designed. And just to see that ownership, this is our building, and us to just say welcome home, There's nothing like it. But I think if we if we bring that down to a church level, we have a little ways to go to make a dream room for the community to speak rather than us providing solutions for what we would love the community to have.
Johan Heinrichs:
Are the buildings and the programs, are they serving the community or is the community serving the buildings and programs? I think that's kinda what it comes down to. Something we all need to wrestle with. I think we should probably end the conversation there, and let's get into our CareLingo segment. CareLingo. Alright. This is kind of a related word to our topic, when we're talking about programs and programs over people, that sort of thing. Our term today is voluntourism.
Wendi Park:
Mhmm. It's
Johan Heinrichs:
kind of a plan word. I'm not I'm not even sure if it's a real word, but it's it's I've
Wendi Park:
heard it a lot.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. But, you know, there's there's sometimes made up sometimes made up words that you hear lots. Honestly, I didn't know what it was when I first heard it, which is, I don't know, probably several years ago. But I'll let you give the right definition. But what I would have thought is, you know, booking your next vacation, with someone with matching t shirts that has a caption on how you're helping others. You know? Oh, that's
Wendi Park:
so annoying.
Johan Heinrichs:
It's like, look at us. Look what we did. We're going on tour. We're going on vacation. But we want people to know, while we're sitting on the beach, that we're really good people, that we help others when we're back at home. So volunteerism. Yeah.
Wendi Park:
Well, maybe, we should make your dream come true. You and Corey go on a vacation. We could make you a t shirt for Care Impact volunteerism.
Johan Heinrichs:
I'd I'd be up for that, volunteer. Yeah. I'd wear this shirt. Yeah. Okay. Even if I don't agree with it right now, if it gets me on a vacation, I'll take it.
Wendi Park:
You're not volunteering, but if people don't give you more support, it's basically as volunteers.
Johan Heinrichs:
I might look like I'm living a lavish lifestyle, but really, I I help people. I'm a good person back at home. I live I live frugally, volunteerism. What does it actually mean, though, Wendy?
Wendi Park:
Well well, it's it it may be part of a a larger discussion than we have time for here today, but it there is some critique around the tourism when it it's spoken of sort of on a negative tone, when we critique short term service trips that prioritize kind of those feel good experiences, exposure to other countries, and a bit like, let's be honest, a bit exploitative, get those pictures with those cute grubby kids and the white girl in the middle. I'm just talking myself here. And getting those exposure trips probably in a warm country maybe in the December, just saying, or or January. But we we prioritize that volunteer. Maybe we're painting an orphanage or or something that they could have hired somebody to do for themselves and had a job given locally or, maybe something a little more constructive that they actually wanted than what we bring in our suitcase, over that long term well-being of communities. And so, yeah. So it's it's useful for volunteerism is a term that might be useful for conversations about, how we go about missions, how we go about outreach, even in our own community. You don't have to go across the world.
Wendi Park:
You might be going across the tracks. And how are we exposing? How are we being present in community? That conversation about, like, power, who holds the power in that, and who are we listening to, and how are we being present, and is that relationally sustainable in what we're doing, or is there, if we're honest, a bit of exploitation? But there is good ways. Let me let me end with this. There are good ways to engage cross culturally, whether it's across the world or across the tracks. There are ways to actually meaningfully be present and learn with and do in an equitable way. So don't be afraid of of crossing cultures and learning and being a blessing to others, but just be aware of volunteerism.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. Because you wanna build relationship, not not just, you know, one and done.
Wendi Park:
It's a posture.
Johan Heinrichs:
And there's there's the idea of helping and not hurting as well when you go into a new culture. Right? But until next time
Wendi Park:
Until next time.
Johan Heinrichs:
Remember to stay curious. Thank you for joining us on Journey with Care. To get more information on weekly episodes, upcoming opportunities, or to connect with our community, visit journeywithcare.ca or find Care Impact on Facebook and Instagram, or just check the show notes for these links and all the links related to this episode. Share your thoughts, leave us a message, and be part of a network of individuals journeying in faith and purpose. Together, let's discover how we can make a meaningful impact.
