From Programs to Presence | With Erinn Oxford

May 16

Description

What happens when we prioritize presence over programs? Hosts Johan Heinrichs and Wendi Park converse with Erin Oxford, Executive Director and Pastor of The Dale Ministries in Toronto. Erin shares poignant stories from her experience, illustrating how living faithfully in messy places can transcend the confines of traditional church structures. From relinquishing buildings to fostering genuine community, Erin recounts how choosing presence brought profound support and connection within the Dale community. Together, they explore how confronting discomfort and embracing vulnerability can transform lives, challenging listeners to rethink the church's role beyond its walls and how each of us can make a significant impact in our communities by simply being present.

Time Stamps

[08:59] Nomads with a Schedule

[12:57] Embracing Vulnerability Through Caregiving

[17:03] "Storytelling: A Unifying Force"

[18:18] "Storytelling Across Differences"

[22:00] Love and Grief Interconnected

[25:16] Connect with Your Community

[31:02] "Love and Being: A Divine Call"

[33:27] Care Lingo

Guest Links

The Dale: https://thedale.org/

Erinn Oxford: https://erinnoxford.com/

Zach Manntai:
It's so funny when you think about the the concepts around the early church of how they were known by their love, how they were known by the way that they postured themselves from this bottom up approach that the kingdom of God was just seen throughout the early church because of the way that they lived with all parts of their lives. You knew that they were Christians and you wanted to be with them. You knew what it was like to be loved by them, and that posture that they provided as an example to the world changed culture.
Johan Heinrichs:
What if kindness isn't a moment, but a rhythm? What if changing the world doesn't look like a grand gesture, but like showing up again and again? This is Journey with Care, a podcast by Care Care Impact where curious Canadians find inspiration to love others well through real life stories and honest conversations. A few years ago for my fortieth birthday, my wife organized a Go GoFundMe so that I can finally get my dream acoustic guitar. It wasn't cheap, not something we could have justified on our own, but friends and family showed up. People I've journeyed with, done life with, sat across the table with, they all chipped in. And on my birthday, I walked into a guitar shop, and I picked it up and brought it home. I'm still in awe of the generosity and love that put that guitar into my hands. It wasn't just about getting a nice instrument. It was about what it represented.
Johan Heinrichs:
It was their way of saying, we believe in you. We believe in what God is doing through you. And to this day, I think of those friends and family every time I pick it up. What's even more beautiful is that the gift didn't stop with me. I've been able to lead worship with that guitar, not just in my home church, but in other communities too. It's a way of sharing back what was given. And the truth is, I couldn't have measured the ripple effect of that gift in that moment. But over time, I've seen how small acts of kindness, when rooted in love, keep moving outward.
Johan Heinrichs:
That's what Zach reminds us of in this episode. That kindness isn't always loud or measurable. Sometimes it's just presence. Sometimes it's showing up with what's in your hand and trusting that God will multiply it. Our guest today is Zach Mantai, someone who's not only a friend of the podcast, but someone who's helped us kick off this Cost of Indifference series with his thoughtful, honest reflections on compassion, fatigue, and sustainable care. Zach is a community builder, a systems thinker, and a passionate advocate for youth and mental health. He works at the intersection of faith, public health, and justice. And he doesn't just talk about kindness, he lives it in the everyday.
Johan Heinrichs:
What I love about Zach is that he brings both conviction and humility into every conversation. He helps us zoom out to see the bigger picture, but never loses sight of the individual. In today's episode, we pick up where we left off, exploring the quiet power of small acts of kindness and how over time, they ripple into real change. So, Wendy, let's get this conversation going.
Wendi Park:
I would love to. So good to have you back here, Zach, in studio with us to talk about this next episode. But before we get started, I wanna ask you, if kindness were a mascot, like a character or an animal or something that you can imagine, what would it be and why?
Zach Manntai:
What a strange question, Wendy. And, yes, it's wonderful to be back. But I can say I had never thought about kindness as a mascot or a character in in any way. And so I decided to come up with a strange one. So follow this if best you can. The best answer I could come up with was a b. Now one of the things about kindness in our conversation today that I think is interesting is that bees are often thought about in their busyness and their work ethic. But think about this.
Zach Manntai:
Bees perform small tasks unnoticed yet have enormous impact through pollination. They're essential for ecosystems, and they symbolize really how small, tiny impacts accumulate over time to support the broader community. So I would say that a bee would make a fun mascot for kindness.
Wendi Park:
Well, that would make a fun mascot very profound, very deep. And I have to say I was gonna counter that with a bumblebee as well because my AI I'm gonna be full disclosure. My AI said you should say a bumblebee.
Johan Heinrichs:
I think we need to buy the costume and and just run with it, Wendy. Yeah. I'll come on the podcast wearing it.
Wendi Park:
I'd like to see Johan in a Bumblebee outfit.
Zach Manntai:
I, I probably would pay money to see that.
Wendi Park:
I might too.
Zach Manntai:
Well, hold on a second. You did a fundraiser before for dancing, so now I think it needs to be Bumblebee costumes.
Wendi Park:
That is true. We haven't put Johan on, Facebook live with anything crazy like that yet.
Johan Heinrichs:
So I can ugly dance. That's what
Wendi Park:
I thought. But Yeah. Well, I I did already at Christmas. So, anyway, we're in our series, the cost of indifference. And today, we're really wanting to focus in on the ripple effect, looking at small acts with big impact. And so, Zach, you have had a lot of experience in on micro levels, at grassroots levels. To get us started, why do small acts of kindness often go unnoticed but still have a huge impact?
Zach Manntai:
Well, I think that one of the struggles in our life is that we we look for those big momentous events to define our life. And yet, my wife and I, we've been in a relationship for now almost nineteen years. And what has built up our relationship with each other has been those moments in between those big things. And so I would say that when we think about the small acts of kindness, of presence, the key is really about saying, I can trust you. I can believe that you're gonna be here with me. And that creates a building of momentum in a relationship like a flywheel that says, Hey, I know I can trust you with the big things because I trusted you with the small things and you followed through. And so those small pieces of just kindness and presence, they significantly change the way that you feel, whether it's feeling seen or or even just feeling like you are allowed to be who you are supposed to be. And I think that that's an intentional shift away from a selfish, more, navel gazing, as my mother used to call it, mindset of the world.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. No. That's really good. And so what you're saying is that kindness isn't really, like, an event. We're doing kindness. We're doing an act of kindness. It's more of a posture or a habit that we have, and it's, like, drop by drop that you build trust. And particularly when we're talking about caring for community, particularly journeying with those going through difficulty who have had a lot of trust broken with them.
Wendi Park:
There's a lot of traumatic stories that have gone on in their lives that building trust doesn't happen over one bouncy castle event. It it happens over a thousand cups of coffee, doesn't it? And so that is an important thing that we can often undervalue. And yet why do we keep gravitating towards bigger acts that are are a little bit more tangible or more event like?
Zach Manntai:
So in a lot of the work I do, we are looking for KPIs, key performing indicators. And the easier thing would be to say how many times has that big thing happened. If I had to count every single time I said something kind to my spouse or my kids where it's a part of my every day, it's really hard to do. Imagine walking through the day having one of those clickers that the staff used to use going into Costco, where it's like click, click, click all the day long. It's a lot easier to say, How many times did I go and do that big, grandiose overture of my love for this person? But I think when we really do think who matters most, it's not about the big things. It's about that long term posture that you're describing. And I think if we do think about it through the lens of that, whether it's in our churches or in our community groups or just in our neighborhoods, the people that we truly can rely on are the ones that have been there through a lot of those things, and not just the ones that show up like a no offense to our politician friends. The politicians looking for the photo op.
Zach Manntai:
That's not the kind of person that I really feel like I can rely on.
Wendi Park:
I think it's easy in our Canadian society to almost see acts of kindness or being kind as a bit transactional, and I think it creeps into our relationships just like it creeps into the shopping malls. When I pay a dollar, I wanna get something back at Dollarama of value. When I am kind, I want reciprocated kindness and gratitude for what I have, whatever that transaction looks like, even towards people that may not have anything monetary of value to give back to what I'm doing. There's a a bit of that mentality of I scratch your rack, you scratch mine creeping in to how we care for others, and yet we have to, like, break away from that transaction. I'm I'm reminded in in Luke 16, I think, verse 10. It says, whoever is faithful in very little is also faithful in much. It's those little things, those unseen things where we're not expecting gratitude, we're not expecting recognition. That's what forms the character of an individual.
Zach Manntai:
% agree. And I think back to your question on why we gravitate to those bigger ones, it's really great to feel like I gave you something and you gave me something if it's a big deal. If it was just those little grains of rice, one after another, it doesn't matter. But when I go back to my, hey, callbacks, bees require significant amounts of pollination to create the fruit that we need. They don't just do it once and everything's done. They have to keep going back to the flowers, and they keep going back and building honey, and keep on going back to the flowers, and keep on building honey. And they do this over and over and over again to create that beautiful harvest that we have at the end of the season. But if they only went once and said, I did my thing waiting for the food, the apple would never grow.
Zach Manntai:
And I think this is what's really difficult about our transactional world. Capitalism, it's toxic. That's at the end of the day. This is what it is. When it weaves its toxic fingers into the fabric of our society, every single thing we see needs to be worth it to me. Now, a friend of mine used to argue with me often about even our faith, where you submit to Jesus so that you can get to heaven. You submit to his authority, not because it's what's best for you and the people around you, not because that's what was always intended, but because it gets you out of hell. And I think that kind of transactionalization in the church, it just breeds a sense of I did my task checkbox.
Zach Manntai:
I can do that. When it's pay it forward or something like that, it turns it into a rat race rather than a sense of I actually do get something out of this, but it's because we succeed. And that communal sense of value when it's small things building up over time, that's what creates a healthy community. That's what creates a sense of belonging, where our values submitting to each other, supporting each other, lifting each other up over and over and over again, that's what creates the fabric of a community that is strong to be resilient enough to handle the things when they do go wrong. But if we don't have that, if we just have these big stakes in the ground that says, hey, there was that one time that person did that thing for me and it was great, but there's nothing in between. It's difficult. And so it's easier to do. Hey, I don't know about you, we're at the age probably where we don't get asked anymore, but that person that would show up to help you move into your new house, out of an old one into a new one, how often do they show up for coffee, like you talked about? Those hundreds of coffee cups versus just they showed up at these big events.
Zach Manntai:
Weddings and funerals, we're at that stage of life where it's starting to become more funerals than weddings. But if you're not a part of my day to day, can I really rely on you? Can I really trust in you? And so thinking about it through that lens, you have to shift it away from this is what's best for us. I am selfishly saying community work and the things I do in this are going to benefit my family. They're gonna benefit my community. They're gonna benefit my neighborhood. But the difference would be, would I do it even if it didn't today? We talk sometimes about that hundred year vision. Right?
Wendi Park:
That's right. And yet we live in such an instant world. We wanna see results now, and we're conditioned to see results now. It reminds me of you know, Zach, that we run the care portal, and it's a care sharing technology that connects churches to real needs in their community because this need has been made known by the the community member with their social worker or you have it working at front lines. And it it becomes known to the church that, hey. Can you help with these these acts of kindness? Now you might ask, will a pack of diapers because they really have nothing and maybe a mattress to keep them off the floor, are those acts of kindness actually doing any greater good? Or where is the evangelism? Where is that big the big goal, the fire insurance, if you will, for these people that are are in crisis? When can we share the real good news? And there's a there's a tension there. I see the heart and the the intention for the best interest of our community. But if somebody simply does doesn't let their left hand know what their right hand is doing and vice versa, and they give that pack of diapers out of, obedience, out of just kindness, out of their heart to that young mom so that they can be on their way for reunification, is that person simply giving clean diapers to a baby to waddle into hell? Or is there a greater greater story here that isn't just about fire insurance, that acts of kindness that we actually don't need to know the outcomes of every single person? In fact, these people that we share kindness with, these small acts of kindness, perhaps they have so much more intrinsic value to give to us if we just sit down and listen.
Zach Manntai:
Yes. And while I can I'll I'll challenge you on this. Even in that moment, there's still a sense of what's the transactional value because they're gonna provide value even though I don't recognize it. I think that we need to remember this. When we come back to Jesus and say, when did we see you hungry or thirsty and give you food and something to drink? When did we see you with no place to stay and invite you in? When did we blah blah blah. Guess what? Even in those moments, the faithfulness was asked of us. The question is, did we do it? Whether it was ever going to come back to us or not. Because what we do to the least of these, we do to God.
Zach Manntai:
And I think this is what's hard is that, yes, absolutely, we can we have to decolonize and think through the value proposition of someone who is viewed in our society as less than and see them as value added, as imago dei, made in the image of God, beautiful as they are, without us needing to fix them and sit with them and say, I do believe I can learn from you. I do believe that you provide value to us. And yet, to those that would still feel like they're a drag on society, they're not helpful, they're harming us, guess what? How we treat them when they can literally give us nothing is still a reflection of how we see God. And I think this is what's so difficult because those are the things that are every single minutia, those grains of sand that we see and we're like, it doesn't matter. But it builds up, and it speaks to who we are.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. I I couldn't agree more with that. And and the the whole idea, it's not on, if I do this, they will become more productive then. Or if I do this, they will get a hand up then, even if that addiction cycle continues, even if there are tragedies and mental health conditions that land them into endings that we don't want to see, and yet we got to have at least five cups of coffee within their journey, it it's because people are worthy of humanity. They are humans. And I think back at I I've been reading a book. I think it's called The Price of Humanity. Maybe I'll put it in the show notes.
Wendi Park:
It's a it's a secular humanistic book, but it's really talking about how philanthropy went wrong. And it got me to think differently, which I love being challenged on different thoughts out there. The piece that I really picked up on, when we look back in history, when they started building public libraries, Public libraries was an act of philanthropy. It still is to this day. It's a common place where everybody can meet. It's not on a project because, oh, because you're of low economic status, you can come in here, and we're gonna project you or or give you what you need. It's not because you have a certain high class membership that you can everybody can take out books. Everybody can sit in those spaces.
Wendi Park:
And they were designed they are designed as beautiful pieces of art, architecture that we can all enjoy because we are all human, not on the outcomes that we produce. We're not productions. We are humans.
Zach Manntai:
This is the struggle, though. Right? It's it's in that moment. I think one of my own personal struggles is that I acknowledge, and and I think that this is core to any of the conversations I have. I haven't figured out how to do this right all the time. I wrestle with, I don't have time for this, or, but what's the value in this? What's the what's the return on investment? I wrestle with that more often than I wanna admit. And so to any listener, I need you to remember this. Wendy and I, Johan, we're speaking to ourselves. We're challenging ourselves and reminding ourselves that this is the way that God has called us to live.
Zach Manntai:
It's not perfect. We're not done. This is just us reminding ourselves as much as you that this is the path that we are called to walk. And I think that's really hard because that moment where you're like, hey, you are beloved. You are you are worth the the death of the creator, God on the cross, period. But do I have time for that cup of coffee? Do I have time to slow down? Do I have time in my life? And I think as we talked about on our last time together, there is a chance to feel overwhelmed with all of the needs. And I think this is why, for me, recognizing and reminding myself that the small matters. Because sometimes, even though I wanna talk about the big things, the things that no one sees, the small things.
Zach Manntai:
You know what? I can do that, and I hopefully can do that consistently.
Wendi Park:
But you're right. Doing many small things and giving many yeses in small ways, it's like a dripping tap. And pretty soon, we're wondering, like, why are we so exhausted? Right? And so we can almost make small yeses into micro events
Zach Manntai:
Mhmm.
Wendi Park:
That we don't have to say yes to everything. And I think that's why Jesus gets away from the crowds, not because of he was tired of people touching the hem of his cloak or or doing miracles, but I feel like he needed to get away to get back to that bigger picture. God, center me to your purposes. I wanna get away with you. I wanna remember who it is that you've called me to be and and what my place in this to be. Because you're so right. We can also get into the like, where we have to be little Jesuses to everything, and we have to be little kindness Karens. That's the wrong word.
Wendi Park:
But we have to do kindness to everybody and just be nice, and get maybe nothing done. I don't know that tension. But I think if we were not looking at it as events, but as posture, like breathing in the way we interact when god's sentences come up in the grocery aisle or in a meeting or in different encounters that we have around the kitchen table with family, can we have a posture of kindness? And what could that do if we all assume that posture? I don't wanna get too political here, but imagine if we adopted small acts of kindness in a posture of kindness in this day and age that we're living in. I think there would be a lot of huge impact globally.
Zach Manntai:
Agreed. And this is where it becomes a a challenge to say we need to change what we measure. We need to change the value of those things and really lean into that posture mentality of this is just the way that we are called to live. And if I can do that, even with a greater intentionality, I found that it's like a question of how do I know which way to walk if I've never seen it walked this way? So sometimes there is a pressure to feel like I need to model this. I need to model what kindness in these small, repeatable moments looks like. And that can in and of itself become a pressure. But if I know that I'm not the only bee, this changes everything. I'm in a hive that is a part of what is supposed to be happening.
Zach Manntai:
And we're all in different roles, we're all in different places. It will take the pressure off of all of us, but we each have to commit to saying, this is what we're in for. We're walking out what God intended through our identity, through, this is who we are as the people of God. This is what like, it's so funny when you think about the the concepts around the early church of how they were known by their love, how they were known by the way that they postured themselves from this bottom up approach that the kingdom of God was just seen throughout the early church because of the way that they lived with all parts of their lives. And you don't see a lot of it was just too much work to be a Christian. It was like you knew that they were Christians and you wanted to be with them. You knew what it was like to be loved by them. And that posture that they provided as an example to the world changed culture.
Zach Manntai:
And I think that we have abandoned some of that for our moral majority kind of mindset. And if we actually do believe that we're supposed to pick up our cross and follow Jesus rather than pick up the sword and cut off the ear of of the person in front of us, I think we have we've gotta figure out who we are.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. That is so good. And and I think what you're broaching on here, what I'm hearing is that kindness and our posture towards others is also intention with calling, and who we are called to be, who that early church was designed, and what is our DNA going back to our our corporate calling as as a community of believers that we are all busy bees working alongside each other. It's not just about writing the check or giving the tithes so somebody else does the work. We are all part of building that up. But then also there's personal awareness, I think, that needs to happen because if we're not self aware, if we don't understand how god is I'm not saying, like, we perfectly understand. There's no task to do that, but we can have clues as to how god has called us and how how we are wired and to lean into those things that god has created us for. It also makes it more purposeful in those small acts.
Wendi Park:
Because I I think there there we can be try to be multipurpose busy bees rather than maybe directional small acts of kindness bees, if that makes sense. Or we can also be just kind in the cheap seats, but not really get in the game, not really get into the trenches that god has called you to speak before authorities or god has called you to develop this organization or god has called you to start this nonprofit or or have a soup and pie. Whatever it is that god has wired you, that it's also intention of, like, is this aligned to my calling? It doesn't mean I don't bake cookies. Well, it probably does because I don't like baking cookies. I know how, but just don't ask me to bake cookies. I'll go buy them from the store. It doesn't mean, though, that I have a objection towards kindness and and helping out where I can, but I'm gonna probably say yes to posturing my kindness into areas where I can shine the best. I don't know if that makes sense to you, but I'm just processing.
Zach Manntai:
No. It absolutely does. I think this is where, as a community of faith, we expect Christians to look a certain way. And I think when we we say it's like you got to be a pastor, a professional Christian, to really be serving God in that calling, we actually demean those other parts of our life. If you're an amazing baker, all the props to you. But Wendy, if that's not who you are, that's okay. And yet the question then becomes, how best do do you show that kindness? How best do you image God in the spaces and the places that you have been given opportunity in? And then exploring that and being okay with it being a journey because I think that that's the value proposition. It's not a fixed point.
Zach Manntai:
It's not a I've arrived. It's a posture and a journey and a path that is not always linear, and it puts us in a position of saying, hey, I see value in each of these pieces. Like, Jesus talks about this. We're a body, and if we're a body with different body parts, that's okay. Lean into that. But then lean into it not in a way that says, I don't have to care. I never have to bake cookies because I'm not a baker. That's just not my thing.
Zach Manntai:
That's that's harmful. That's that's selfish. That's not actually saying, I'm willing to be a blessing in the way that is needed in front of. But when I have a choice of baking or setting up chairs or whatever it might be, lean into it. And that's okay, but do it for God's glory. Do it to bring hope to this world. Do it so that those that are in front of you know that they are beloved by the creator god. And if you do that with whatever is in your hand, be the best bee you can be.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. And and be the person that could take the mic, but also the next moment, clean the toilet when nobody's watching. Right? We do what we need to do, in a posture of humility and service. And I would also say, though, that as we do good in small acts of kindness, I don't know about you, but for myself, that's when I've learned about myself. I didn't know what would cause me to become alive until and I that's not why I do it, but it just something awakens or the way people respond or the way, those opportunities keep resurfacing. You don't know until you try, and sometimes we do need to have the courage to do it anyway even when we might be fearful, even when we feel insignificant, or even when we don't know if there's gonna be a good result, but we do it anyway. And then often the impossible can happen when we all have that posture.
Zach Manntai:
Agreed. And I think that's the beauty of this exploration because it stops it from being prescriptive. It stops me from being able to say, this is just the way it's gotta be and do it that way, and then God will be happy. It requires participation, and it requires you to say, what does it look like in my space? What does it look like in that? And being okay with the uncertainty about perfection and saying, but this is tov, this is good, this is something that I can I can walk with?
Wendi Park:
Do you have any examples in Calgary or in some of your work projects that you've been doing across the country where small acts of kindness or when people all share that and embrace that posture of care and compassion where maybe larger things have resulted, a ripple effect, out of those small acts?
Zach Manntai:
Well, I'll be honest. A lot of those ripple effects probably haven't yet been seen. And so that's okay in some of the work I do. It is thinking longer term. It's saying, if we start this posture today, what will it look like for both this generation later on, but also potentially for other generations? One of the projects I'm really lucky to be a part of based here in in Calgary is called Planet Youth, and one of the value propositions is that it is what's called an upstream preventative approach to youth mental health and addictions. And as we sit in this space in in a couple of communities here in Calgary, One of the things that has to be really emphasized is how sometimes the slow posture of trust building has unintended and potentially far reaching impacts. I've spent the last eight months working with a group of youth where we're giving them agency in a world that has often taken that from them. We're giving them the power to make choices and make decisions about who they are and where they're going in a way that validates where they are today and not just what they could do for us later.
Zach Manntai:
And yet, while we're working with these 15 year olds, 18 year olds, there's also conversations with their parents, and there's conversations about their younger siblings, and there's conversations about how we create systems change in these neighborhoods that hopefully will have those long term impacts. And so watching these kids who have, for the first time ever really, felt like they could make decisions about their life and how they interact with each other over the last number of months has actually been a a really, I think, insightful thing to feel like this is what we've been working for, and we're seeing it almost a year into it. Whereas other pieces of this, I don't know if it'll take another generation to really see whether or not what we're doing today matters. But the kindness of just being human with another human, of saying, I see you. You are worth my time and my energy in these young lives is already significant. And I think that that's the kind of piece that is is really hard to, if we go back to measurables, it's hard to measure the speed of relationship. The speed of relationship as it equates to the things that we measure is really difficult. There's a phrase, what we measure matters, or what matters we measure.
Zach Manntai:
And so it's both reciprocal. If you are thinking about how many times you ask somebody out for coffee and you emphasize just frequency of coffees, you will possibly shorten the value of the coffee that you're present at because that's not necessarily the thing that you're measuring. You're waiting for the next coffee to happen. But if you're willing to sit back and say, how many minutes have I spent with people that aren't in my normal How many hours have I spent volunteering in different groups? How many times have I invited people over for dinner? There are different ways of measuring some of that impact, but it's a matter of saying, don't measure the wrong things.
Wendi Park:
We have to value that. Right? And what I love about the example with the youth in Calgary that surely you all came together with a a compelling vision that drew you all together to to form this collective. But that in itself isn't a check mark to mark in a box. It's actually the being present along the way that is the work. Those are the ripples. And the outcome, that greater vision that might be seen in this generation or the next or the the next, that doesn't devalue the present moment. It it's being present in the moment with human to human, with each other that is the work while we might be striving for a goal greater than ourselves that we might all aspire to.
Zach Manntai:
And I think that's part of one of the biggest problems in the kind of work I do is that a funder wants a measurable in the short term. A funder wants the ability to say, did I give you something that you could use, or should I give it to somebody else? And when I think about Jesus and his talents, the question wasn't, did you maximize the value, but did you use what was in your hand? And I think when we sit back and actually change some of those expectations, It changes our entire interaction with each other away from that transactional state. And it's hard. The Calgary Foundation has been starting to do some pilot projects. They're looking at multi year, iterative approaches to funding. Because the bigger, longer term conversation matters more than just that six month grant timeline that they used to have. Some of their bigger grants require many years to actually see the fruits of those labors. But unless they're willing to both have a funder who's willing to support that, the groups that are looking to see this change won't ever see the change that they're looking for.
Zach Manntai:
And I think this is where it's really difficult to shift in a world that is looking for those metrics of success to touch the social space that we spend most of our time in. One of the things during COVID that was really difficult was that the cost of health care, the cost of impact to our world was actually being burdened by a large portion of us because of our inconveniences. And yet for a lot of the individuals that were healthy and young, they felt like this wasn't worth their time. And yet, when we sat back and looked at the cost of health care for the most vulnerable, it felt like they were saying something that, that came out of Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol. Are there no poorhouses? Are there no asylums? Can they not just find a place? Well, if not, then perhaps they should just die and decrease the surplus population. And that sense of, no one would say that. How dare Scrooge or any other human say that they devalued human life? But by our actions, often, we do say those that are of the most vulnerable don't create value enough for the now and for the future. And so when I think about some of the people in the works I've been a part of my entire life, to actually have a economic justification for helping and supporting people, it's hard.
Zach Manntai:
But then the question becomes, is it worth it? In in a case where you're talking about in the in Planet Youth, this is a five year, dollars twenty five million initiative. So for the philanthropists who put money into this project, is it worth it? That's the question that they're asking. How do I show kindness every day and quantify that and show the value to a funder that says, no, they shouldn't just die and decrease the surplus population. These people are humans. They are made in the image of God. They are worth my time. And like you said before, regardless of whether or not they ever change and become a valuable member of society as far as the way that we measure it today. They are worth my time, and they are worth both the sacrifice of God through the death of Jesus, but also just through our lives, through our time.
Zach Manntai:
And if that's how we view the world, if that's how we shift this, this, then the kindness I show every day, that's using the talent that I have in my hand. That's investing it even if it's not for something that I can quantify easily here on Earth.
Wendi Park:
Well, Zach, there's so much more that we can unpack, and I wanna encourage our listeners to follow-up next Friday where Yohan and I are gonna have second thoughts on this. There's so many, strings to pull on on what you have shared with us today. Thank you so much. Talking about the ripple effects, small acts that create big impact. Before we go, Zach, do you have one listener challenge that we can all put into practice this next week?
Zach Manntai:
I think I can. So here's my challenge to you, the listener. This week, intentionally reconnect with a neighbor or acquaintance. Send them a thoughtful message, meet them for coffee, or check-in with them personally. Pay attention to someone who might feel overlooked or different from you, and just show them that they are seen.
Johan Heinrichs:
That's beautiful. Thank you so much, Zach. But before we let you go, we're gonna keep you on for our Care lingo. Alright. So this is our Care lingo segment where we take the mystery out of these care words and phrases that you hear in the caring space, social services space, trauma space, whatever space that you find Care Impact in, that's that's where you'll find the CareLingo words. And today's word or phrase, I I think it's a phrase today, is holding space. Holding space. Now when I first heard this term, I thought about, you know, when you send your most brave child out of your vehicle into the cold to find that parking spot that's close to the to the doors of the of the shopping mart.
Johan Heinrichs:
Right? They're gonna stand in that parking spot. They're gonna be brave. They're gonna put their hands to anybody trying to take that spot, and they're gonna hold that space for you so that you can get that parking spot while you circle around making sure that you get there. That's probably not the real definition. I don't know. Zach, have you ever done that? You got little kids, but, Wendy, you probably do
Wendi Park:
it. I've never. I just pray and the angel opens a a spot for me.
Zach Manntai:
Think I've ever even thought to do that. What is wrong with you?
Johan Heinrichs:
Oh, you send your wife. Is that it?
Zach Manntai:
Woah. Woah.
Wendi Park:
Well, you know what? I I love your definition, but I was thinking of God, of course. That's the right answer, Jesus. But he holds the whole world in his hands, you know, and so the whole universe, he's holding space. So when we see NASA out there at the space station, God's holding space.
Johan Heinrichs:
People might think we're crazy. Like, how do you hold something that's I mean, I guess there's air molecules in there, but, you know, holding space, it feels kinda like an oxymoron. Right?
Zach Manntai:
It does. And I think that this is the hard part for people trying to step into this world. It's like, how am I supposed to hold space? Well, holding space means crafting a safe and nonjudgmental environment where someone can express their experiences, emotions, and needs openly and authentically without feeling rushed, fixed, or minimized.
Johan Heinrichs:
Thank you for finding the correct definition for us, sir Zach. I will try not to send my children out in the cold. In fact, I don't you know what? It's my wife that makes me park close to the doors. I don't care where I park. I can go to the back of the lot. I'm good. And she always wonders, why are you parking back here? I see a spot way up there, and then, you know, I circle around, and sure enough, that spot's gone. You gotta do the
Zach Manntai:
Costco lurking, man. You just gotta lurk.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. Costco. That's the worst.
Wendi Park:
There's bigger space at the back. Right? So you're holding bigger space for people in in the back of the parking
Johan Heinrichs:
lot. Anyway, there's many ways to hold space, and there's one correct way. And thank you, Zach, for bringing that to light. Listeners, if you wanna get in on this Care Lingo segment, if you got some thoughts on holding space or any other future words that you wanna hear on the podcast, head over to our Facebook Care Impact podcast group. We got some postings there, and you can post whatever you want as well. Until next time, remember to stay curious. Looking forward to dissecting this conversation next Friday. Thank you for joining us on Journey with Care.
Johan Heinrichs:
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