Sheltered by Similarity | How to Tell if You're in a Bubble with Shannon and David Steeves
The Cost of Indifference Series: Episode 4
The Cost of Indifference Series: Episode 5
Description
Could the comfort found in like-minded communities actually be what's holding us back?
In today's conversation on Journey With Care, hosts Johan Heinrichs and Wendi Park are joined by Shannon and David Steeves to explore the potential pitfalls of echo chambers in faith communities. Johan reflects on his past experiences within a close church group that, while fostering belonging, also inadvertently created a limiting bubble. Shannon and David bring their perspectives as a couple from diverse cultural backgrounds, sharing insights from their marriage and personal journeys. They discuss how embracing diverse perspectives can foster deeper empathy and richer connections in church communities.
Time Stamps
[06:15] Cultural Journey from Istanbul to Canada
[10:09] Adjusting to Life in Canada
[12:39] Understanding Reactions and Sensitivities
[17:09] Church Leadership and Cultural Impact
[20:40] Embracing Diversity Requires Intentionality
[23:01] Navigating Power Dynamics in Church
[30:14] Proximity and Understanding Matter
[32:52] The Cost of Indifference
[35:21] Overcoming Main Character Syndrome
[36:30] Care Lingo: Microagressions
CareImpact Podcast Group: https://www.facebook.com/share/g/19rkPGbD7C/
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David Steeves:
Like, we have to adapt. Like, there's not just one specific way to serve people. Yeah. There's not just one specific way to decide on people. I think when you're you're doing that, you're limiting yourself. It's so important to meet people where they're at. Yeah. The way we do that is is is just relationships.
Johan Heinrichs:
This is Journey with Care, a podcast by Care Impact where curious Canadians find inspiration to love others well through real life stories and honest conversations. What if the very comfort we find in like minded communities is also what blinds us to the full richness of faith and understanding? This question struck me deeply as I considered my own journey. How often have we mistaken comfort for growth only to realize that embracing diversity and faith in life enriches our own walk with Jesus and broadens our horizons? I was part of a vibrant church community that felt unstoppable. We were full of passion diving to the teachings of speakers and influences within our church expression. After Sunday services, we'd go to a restaurant. We'd sit for hours, dissecting sermons, creating our own teaching sessions, and bouncing ideas off one another back and forth. It was energizing and exciting. We thought we were building something unshakable, totally different from anyone else, a foundation of truth and purpose.
Johan Heinrichs:
Reflecting now, I see both the strength and limitations of that time. That community had provided us with certainty and a strong sense of belonging, and we pursued our faith with undeniable passion. However, we were also inadvertently building a bubble, one that was comfortable, reassuring, but ultimately restrictive. Over time, it became clear that this bubble was not just keeping us from growing, it was also keeping others out. My perspective began to shift when I realized that we weren't as special or unique as I had once felt. This realization came not from a place of disillusionment, but from an understanding that there was a richness and diversity that we were missing. I started to listen more to stories and experiences from outside our bubble. Each story was a revelation, showing me that different church experiences and walks with Jesus were not wrong, but essential.
Johan Heinrichs:
I needed these diverse perspectives to grow, not just intellectually, but in my relationship with Jesus. Now the bubble didn't burst all at once. It deflated slowly with each new conversation, every story that challenged my assumptions about what it meant to follow Christ. I began to rebuild, not just what I believe, but how I approach people. This wasn't about abandoning the passion of my early communities, but about enriching that passion with the voices of others who'd walk different paths. Looking back, I cherish the passion and purpose of that early community, but I also embrace the lessons learned from stepping outside that comfort zone. Today, we explore how echo chambers limit empathy and how embracing diverse perspectives leads to deeper, richer connections. Joining us today are Shannon and David Steeves, newlyweds from diverse cultural backgrounds demonstrating the power of unity in diversity.
Johan Heinrichs:
Shannon serves as the regional manager at Care Impact here in Winnipeg, facilitating deep conversations between churches and communities. David is the next generation pastor at Rose Church here in Winnipeg, nurturing young people's faith across diverse cultures. Together, they'll how diverse experiences can enrich faith and fellowship, also bringing in some of their marriage experience. We're excited to learn from their journey today. But, Wendy, I'm gonna hand it over to you now to get our conversation started.
Wendi Park:
Alright. David and Shannon, so good to have you here. But before we dive in, I just wanna ask you kind of a random crazy question, but if you could instantly pick up a new skill or hobby without practicing, what would it be?
Shannon Steeves:
Oh. Oh, I know mine. I I'm a grandma at heart, so I think mine would have to be, like, knitting or crocheting, something where I can just, like, sit and just Okay. Chat with the ladies, you know?
David Steeves:
I think carpentry. Oh. Wow. Jesus was a carpenter. Okay. I just wanna walk in his footsteps.
Shannon Steeves:
Right. Right.
David Steeves:
No. But I I mean, imagine just being able to build a house. Mhmm. Just boom. You know?
Wendi Park:
Yeah. What what would you build?
David Steeves:
A house and a barn and a garage.
Shannon Steeves:
Oh my gosh. So we're gonna have a farm?
David Steeves:
Something like that.
Shannon Steeves:
That could be fun.
David Steeves:
Well, I met so I did my internship in Tallahassee, Florida. Right? And I stayed with this couple, and this man showed me this barn that he built. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, we can do that. Some of us, humans, could go out and just build barns. Yeah.
Wendi Park:
Well, David, it sounds like we wanna be neighbors with you and Shannon because I don't I don't have any carpentry skills in our in our family, and we could sure use some some instant skills like that.
Johan Heinrichs:
The thing with barns is Yeah. Anything that lives in a barn, they all end up smelling the same, and it's pretty bad, which brings us into, our conversation about
Shannon Steeves:
Good segue. Good segue.
Johan Heinrichs:
Being in an echo chamber or a bubble. When do you wanna kick us off with, our conversation here?
David Steeves:
That's true.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. In our series, we we are looking at the cost of indifference, and one of the things we're looking at is essentially echo chambers and and being internal and just listening to similar voices and maybe not having as much diversity into our conversations, into our thought life, that may challenge us, and it's easier to stay within. Now just in obvious form, you have to tell us a little bit. You don't look alike, and you have worked through some of this reason we've asked you into this story. Tell me a bit of your journeys into thinking outside the box, going outside your barn, so to speak in life.
David Steeves:
That was great. Yeah. So I I was born in Istanbul, Turkey. So that throws a little bit of spice into all of this. But, born to a Ethiopian mother, Nigerian dad, lived six years there. Me and my mom came here to Canada. My mom was, like, culturally, just Africans just in general, especially coming into a new country, they're trying to find folks that look like them, speak like them, cook like them, dress like them. But actually, my mom was really just, she was okay with not being familiar even since Istanbul and going to, a church that was predominantly, you know, Europeans and, you know, Middle Eastern folks.
David Steeves:
And so coming here, she didn't, like, find an Ethiopian church right away. We were actually connected with this this other church that was predominantly had a lot of Caucasian Canadians, and, you know, and so, like, right away, like, my mom was like, hey, be proud of your culture, the color of your skin, but, like, we didn't chase familiarity. And so that kinda just, like, I was always kinda, like, making friends with other folks that look different. And, you know, even going to school outside of Canada and going to The US and, you know, that was a part of just that journey and that upbringing.
Wendi Park:
So you were raised global boy, and I'm curious. And and it's really neat to hear how your mom instilled that and gave you permission to be yourself, but also you were exposed from an early age to so many cultures. And then coming to Canada, which is, like, maybe your fourth culture kid kind of a thing, it's not your first, second, or third. Was there a time as you were growing up here in Canada where you had to discover your own identity, understand your own Imago Dei ness in your own ethnicity in Canada makes sense? What was that like?
David Steeves:
Yeah. So my two aunties came when I was around eight years old. So I grew up with my mom, in Turkey, Six Years, came here for two, three years. It was just me and my mom. Then my two aunties came, and so it was three Ethiopian women, you know what I'm saying, who grew up in, there was like barely any English being spoken in our home, and so, like, really learning the culture Mhmm. Helped me learn who I was, and in return, I became proud of that.
Wendi Park:
And you really got boot camp on how to treat women, didn't you? And no wonder you're happily married. Shannon, I'd love to hear a bit of your story, happily married. Shannon, I'd love to hear a bit of your story because you also you were actually newer to Canada than your husband. Tell us a little bit. And and now with all the politics, we're not gonna go there. But at the same time, you guys are a a living miracle here. Go go share us a little bit of hope here.
Shannon Steeves:
Yeah. Well, my journey here is not quite as interesting. But I was born and raised in Southeast Minnesota. And as I thought about this conversation, I was like, man, I really did spend a lot of time with people who look just like me. And and yeah. So just, like, thinking back, man, since I was a kid, that that definitely shaped my worldview. It shaped just my kind of initial impressions of people and having to kinda examine that as I've gotten older. And then moved to North Dakota for college, and that's where we met.
Shannon Steeves:
And then I spent a little bit of time in Tennessee. So going down south, that was a different vibe. And then, yeah, just in the last, like, nine months or so, moved to Canada to marry him. And, yeah, that has probably been, like, the biggest just pushing me out of my comfort zone moving here. It's like there's so many similarities, but then the things that are different, you're like, oh, yeah. That is different. Especially when it comes to faith and politics and even the kind of the presence and the influence of churches in Canada, feeling a lot of that difference and learning about that has been a learning curve for
Wendi Park:
sure. So now you're married. Congratulations. You're a few months into this marriage. What are some of the surprises, even through your dating and new married life? Maybe it's too much on the hot seat here, but share share as much as you'd like. Because I know, like, I'm in a cross cultural marriage as well. Yeah. My husband came here from another country.
Wendi Park:
And so there's some things that we assume are very similar because we all speak English.
Shannon Steeves:
Right. But what
Wendi Park:
are the some of the things, the nuances that you're realizing, oh, I just thought this is the way it is in in living up my faith and in my day to day that when you're with each other, that you're realizing having to reconsider your assumptions.
David Steeves:
Yeah. I think one thing maybe I feel like communication style sometimes. Mhmm. I grew up where it was like communication styles, just like the lingo and, like, the casualness, even the the banter type jargon Yeah. Kind of bringing that here. Like, are we good? Are we are we mad? Are we happy?
Shannon Steeves:
Right. Like, I often thought he was mad at me Yeah. And he wasn't.
David Steeves:
Yeah. This is like is this a joyful conversation? Is this and so, like, we had to learn, like, I I honestly was like, okay. I need to pivot and be like, hey. This is what I've learned. Mhmm. This is this comes from me just, like, just in my circles and being used to that. Yeah. But knowing that, you know, I wanna love you the best that I can.
David Steeves:
Mhmm. Communicate in a way that's, like
Shannon Steeves:
Right.
David Steeves:
You know, what I'm relaying the message that I want to you to know. Mhmm.
Johan Heinrichs:
You know
David Steeves:
what I'm saying?
Shannon Steeves:
And vice versa.
David Steeves:
And vice versa.
Shannon Steeves:
Yeah. Absolutely. Because as we're, like, in the moment realizing, oh, this is, like, I'm feeling a type of way because of how you communicated, or what how your tone was, or whatever it might be. Then, like, on the flip side, there's a level of, like, me acknowledging my own sensitivities and acknowledging, you know, obviously so much of how we act is based on what we saw growing up or what was modeled for us. Mhmm. And so just because it's different, doesn't mean it's bad. It's bad. And that Weird.
Shannon Steeves:
Or weird or wrong. Yeah.
David Steeves:
And
Shannon Steeves:
that yeah. I'd say that's a a huge thing that we have we've learned
David Steeves:
Yeah.
Shannon Steeves:
Especially in the beginning.
David Steeves:
For sure.
Shannon Steeves:
Yeah. Sometimes I think about, like, hospitality wise. Like, we both are very people people, and we love hosting. But I think Ethiopian hospitality is, like, another level.
Johan Heinrichs:
Mhmm.
Shannon Steeves:
I don't know. Is this landing with you? Like, do you think that that's kind of something
David Steeves:
Yeah.
Shannon Steeves:
We've learned I think
David Steeves:
there is a specific style
Wendi Park:
Mhmm.
David Steeves:
In hosting people in Ethiopian households. It's like and it could be perceived as
Johan Heinrichs:
not rude.
Shannon Steeves:
Because what I'm thinking of is, like yeah. Yeah. What I'm more Bring
David Steeves:
the real, really
Shannon Steeves:
Yeah. Tools. Like, something as simple as and this might not be related really to, like, culture. But I think of a simple example. A couple weeks ago, we were hosting people, and I, like, didn't really care about what dish we used to put some food in.
David Steeves:
Mhmm.
Shannon Steeves:
And you're like, no. That's kinda like it was like a Mhmm. A mixing bowl, you know? And he's like, no. Let's use, like, a actual Yeah. Decent looking bowl. And I'm like, I don't really
David Steeves:
care.
Shannon Steeves:
But for you and for your like, that culture growing up, it's like, no. We're gonna give the highest level of service and and care.
Wendi Park:
Really. Pulled
David Steeves:
out the the like, my auntie, when I was home, she had four or five bowls
Shannon Steeves:
Yeah.
David Steeves:
That were in the top left right corner in the back of Right. A compartment that you didn't know existed
Shannon Steeves:
Yeah.
David Steeves:
Until guests came.
Shannon Steeves:
Right. And I'm like, we can just use the Pyrex. Like, it's
David Steeves:
Yeah. We're realizing, like, I
Wendi Park:
don't know.
Shannon Steeves:
Of things like that. Yeah. Then, again, it's not bad. It's just different.
Wendi Park:
Well, I love what I'm hearing here. Even you're just doing it live right in front of me. I'm seeing echo chambers, assumptions, our baselines are are colliding in each other and not in a way that one is right or one is wrong. There's a mutuality about this conversation you're you're so vulnerably sharing with me. And you're you're right, David and Shannon. I I can identify it. I have Ethiopian relatives. My sister, she brings it next level.
Wendi Park:
When I'm I'm part of Ethiopian weddings and just hospitality, it's just like, I learned so much from it. I'm curious through this, even just through your marriage, and and you've had many different cultural experiences moving to Canada and everything for both of you. How has that enriched? How has that made you a better person? How has that made you more faithful to Christ and refined you as you've had these collisions? And not being wrong or right, but how has that impacted your growth?
Shannon Steeves:
It has really revealed to me, especially we just did a marriage conference at our church, and so this is really on my mind there too. But it really revealed to me how selfish we are as people that we really make decisions in our best interest. Mhmm. And it really takes a lot of effort to kinda humble ourselves and be like, oh, okay. My way isn't necessarily the right way. Mhmm. Or while I believe it is true, other people believe differently.
Johan Heinrichs:
Mhmm.
Shannon Steeves:
And there can be space for me to acknowledge that. I just think about, you know, we're only six, seven months into this. But now I get why people always said in marriage, like, it really reveals that part of you that's, like, we wanna do what we wanna do. Mhmm. And Yeah. I get now how, like, marriage is such this, like, picture of process, I guess, of sanctification. It's like, okay, every day, like, I'm laying myself down Yeah. And putting you ahead of my own needs and vice versa, like that mutual submission.
Shannon Steeves:
And it doesn't happen, like, naturally. I guess that's what you like, I have to think about is my default setting is not to, like, put your needs first.
Johan Heinrichs:
Mhmm.
Shannon Steeves:
I wish it were, and I want it
Wendi Park:
to be. And that's not different from what we are called to as a church to lay down our lives for each other. Right? And so, David, you are a pastor in a church. Shannon, you are on our team doing amazing things in in the city of Winnipeg with the care portal, working with churches. Now let's put that into a context of leadership in churches. Leaders that are one culture, how would that impact how we're cared for, how we provide a hospitality? We're friendly or we love this because it comes out of one lens. It's not necessarily wrong. It's not a morality issue.
Wendi Park:
Let's talk to that. What does it look like for us to have one singular cultural lens through our leadership?
David Steeves:
I think we like, we have to adapt. Like, there's not just one specific way to serve people. Yeah. There's not just one specific way to disciple people. I think when you're you're doing that, you're limiting yourself. It's so important to meet people where they're at. Yeah. The way we do that is is is just relationships.
David Steeves:
Mhmm. Making sure that within the church, we're going out of our our circles and building relationships with people in the church that don't fit that, you know, one Yeah. Like, Canadian like, hey. You know, this one.
Shannon Steeves:
Yeah.
David Steeves:
But it's like, man, have relationships, learn, and then use that knowledge into, you know, creating systems and how to create certain conversations and how to ultimately disciple Mhmm. A multitude of people. And and so I think it's it's very important, I think, for for leadership to have relationship. Does that make sense?
Shannon Steeves:
Yeah. And I think as as you're talking, I'm thinking about, like, some of the conversations I've had with church leaders is, like, I think a lot of it starts with vision. Right. It's, like, coming before the Lord and asking him, okay, what's your vision
David Steeves:
Right.
Shannon Steeves:
For this community, for this church? And then putting those key people in those places to help carry that out. Like, if our vision is to reach the city city of Winnipeg, like, okay, that's our vision. How are we gonna accomplish this? Like, we can't have just one singular demographic in
David Steeves:
all the roles. Right.
Shannon Steeves:
All the roles. Yeah. Like, because they can't necessarily speak or relate the same way to be all things to all people. You know? Like, thank God that we're not because that would be too much. But I think you have to acknowledge that and then put in the, you know, that work, that effort to look for those people that God wants to bring in. I don't know. Does that make sense? Yeah.
David Steeves:
Yeah. Yeah. It it does definitely ultimately start with vision. Mhmm. Yeah. I think humans are just we're just we're prone to chasing comfortability Yeah. Yeah. That makes its way in the church.
David Steeves:
And so it's Yeah. You're always, like, you're breaking against that. Like, Christianity in itself walking with Christ is going against the grain, and so Mhmm. That has to be a part of leadership in church. Be uncomfortable. Yeah. Right? Have those conversations with people. Build those relationships.
David Steeves:
Obviously, ultimately, go to God Mhmm. For that vision. Mhmm. But, like, people need to be reached, and so that doesn't just stop with, English speaking folks.
Wendi Park:
Yeah.
David Steeves:
You know what I'm saying? It's yeah.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. No. There's a lot of good things that, you've touched upon and having that vision for something more than recreating myself in others. Is it we're not looking for the image of me in others and how they should love it love, to worship like me or or act like me, but looking at who is god in the other person. But then you you touched on something else that I'd like to to put a finger on is that it takes intentionality. There's some effort involved, and I wonder if that is one of the barriers that prevents us be from embracing diversity more. I talk with leaders, like, my family is very diverse. I'm the only white girl around the table, but people say, oh, that's diverse.
Wendi Park:
Well, not really if we're not sharing that power. Not really if we're not honoring people's culture and what they bring, and and it's not even just like, oh, you're Ethiopian, so you must be like so and so. You have a unique story that came from Istanbul, and so each person comes with similar threads and fabric, but unique but it takes intentionality. And do you think that we have become indifferent possibly simply because it's just easier to do it our way than embrace potential rifts or storming things out and figuring things out together?
Shannon Steeves:
I think before you even asked that question, I was, like, thinking about how, you know, all of what we're saying is well and good. But, like, in practice, it can be messy.
David Steeves:
Oh, so messy.
Shannon Steeves:
And so I think that, like, really gets to your point is, like, yeah. It really is a lot easier to exist within, you know, our familiar culture, our familiar demographic, our familiar upbringing.
David Steeves:
Mhmm.
Shannon Steeves:
And it's a lot harder to kind of, like, reach across the table and be like, okay. Like, what's your story? Like, I I wanna learn from you. Yeah. And then maybe if it's, like, something that's hard to hear, it's like, okay.
David Steeves:
Yeah.
Shannon Steeves:
You know, we have to grow in that, emotional maturity, I think, to to be willing to listen. Totally. And I this like, I say that from a place of, like, ongoing learning. Yeah. Yeah. Not that I've arrived because it is ongoing. Yeah.
David Steeves:
Totally.
Wendi Park:
Well and it takes the pressure off. When you posture it that way, it takes the pressure off of having to these are the steps to being diverse. These are the steps to not being insular in your thinking. It really requires just leaning in and listening and being responsive to the holy spirit, needing God to give us revelation, needing God to give us inspiration on how do we love each other well and what does it mean to follow you in this? It's not how to do church so that we're not in an echo chamber. It's what does it mean to be faithful and to worship together with shared power. Let's talk on power dynamics within church, within a diverse setting. How do you work through those things? It could be ethnic diversity or gender or things like that. Not I'm not talking about that we should have a power struggle, but I'm sure you've experienced times where there is a power dynamic that people don't even realize they have.
Wendi Park:
They hold the assumed power.
David Steeves:
Yeah.
Wendi Park:
Tell me a little bit of those experiences when you haven't necessarily been that person. What does it feel like to not be that person with the assumed
David Steeves:
Yeah. Coming in to ministry mean being young.
Shannon Steeves:
Mhmm.
David Steeves:
You know, the youngest like a young black boy, and, you know, had the opportunity and the privilege to oversee a team that had predominantly a lot of older folks. Right? So there's older people. You know, they're established. They've got families. Mhmm. And I'm like, okay. How do I delegate? You know? Yeah. So it's like I'm working through leadership, but then also, like, when we're walking into a meeting, how do I hey.
David Steeves:
I'm leading this meeting. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, the words I'm saying is important. This agenda is so I'm working through, like, hey, David. Like, you have that confidence. Mhmm. You know, you're here on purpose. And so I think that's, like, a a continued thing for sure. Yeah.
David Steeves:
I would say so. Really more, like, internally, have to make sure that I'm walking in confidently, but knowing the truth of God. Mhmm. And but, yeah, there's certain moments that's, like, David's the baby, you know. And so it's it's it's the youngest the youngest in the office. And so it's like but I think I've made sure that I'm quick to listen, but also I'm afraid to speak confidently Mhmm. As well.
Wendi Park:
I have a a totally candid question, and feel free to answer how you like it. Not necessarily specific in today's moment, but do you ever feel you said that the young black boy Yeah. In the room. Do you ever feel in order to be heard, you have to act more white?
David Steeves:
You know, feel, yes. Is that truth? No. But it's funny, because, like, when you say white in my head okay. So let me go back to a in 2019, I was playing football in BC. I was getting interviewed. It was like a preseason interview. It was really exciting. And so this reporter was giving me questions and, you know, I was answering.
David Steeves:
And he's like, man, you're really, like you know how to articulate.
Johan Heinrichs:
And I
David Steeves:
was like No. I don't I don't think you know how that sounded. Right? So I think, like, you know, when folks say, like, more white, I think it's, like, being more articulate and more, you know, profound or more you know what I'm saying? And so I'm, like, when in my own circles, like, bro, you sound you sound all white. I'm like, bro, that's not being white. That's just being able to speak. Right? Having diction. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, I know when I walk into a room knowing what I'm about to say, I've downloaded this information. I've taken the time to research.
David Steeves:
Like, I know what I'm saying, and I know how to articulate my thoughts and vision. I know I'll be heard.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. No. I think that that's so good. And there in in in those friction moments, if you call it that, are education moments that people need to lean in and realize we need to take people at face value. But I know different friends of mine of different ethnicities will say sometimes their struggle in their workplace or in in society, some of those struggles, those assumptions that are thrown their way, passive aggressive, microaggressions. And it happens within the church, but we don't always realize it because we're friendly, we're nice. Like, those microaggressions, maybe we can talk a little bit about that because microaggressions happen within echo chambers, happen when we're not challenging status quo or correcting or or changing those things. It doesn't mean people are bad, but it we're rubbing into we're bumping into those assumptions, those false assumptions.
Wendi Park:
What would you say to doesn't matter who in the church, about microaggressions. How would we be able to correct that or edify the church as we bump into each other and and be human to human? How do we address microaggressions so we can truly love each other?
David Steeves:
It begins with a relationship. It's really like living life on purpose. So we're Christian and we're like we're walking with Christ and we're constantly dying to ourselves and constantly being refined. And Mhmm. I think a part of that is being aware and discerning. Like, I've always had that thought. Mhmm. Is that right?
Shannon Steeves:
I mean, I have a different perspective
David Steeves:
Yes.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yes.
Shannon Steeves:
From where I'm at. But I think for me, when I've been trying to work on that in myself is just like we were talking about earlier, is, like, having the humility to recognize that, like, we're not always right.
David Steeves:
Yeah.
Shannon Steeves:
And that's how our experiences have shaped our world view and acknowledging that. It's like, oh, okay. Now that I, like, see that, I can, like, be willing and open to, like, see it a different way. Or for someone to share their experience and be like, oh, I've never I've never had to think about that way.
David Steeves:
Mhmm.
Shannon Steeves:
No one's ever told me you're so articulate, and I, like, all I said was thank you. Because I was like, oh, thanks. Like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, acknowledging that, like, oh, that's a different experience Mhmm. That he had than I. And there's, like, reasons for that.
Shannon Steeves:
And Yeah. Yeah. Just, like, in making that acknowledgement, I think Mhmm. Like you said, it comes down to being in relationship with one another
David Steeves:
Yeah.
Shannon Steeves:
And being willing to ask the questions. Mhmm. It's like, oh, can you know, like, what has that been like for you?
Johan Heinrichs:
Right.
Shannon Steeves:
You know, in relationship with one of us.
David Steeves:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendi Park:
I really appreciate your response in that because, yeah, you're right. Proximity does matter. When we are removed and we objectify, we could even do that in politics, and we're like, we can't like Americans. And, Shannon, we love you. If you only got to know Shannon, who wouldn't? Because you you are an image bearer. You do carry, the the heart of Christ in that. And we could say that for x, y, and z, the things we see on the news, the things we read, the things we assume, things we are inherited for myself as a settler, things I don't even question because I have inherited certain things, and I hope we we've evolved and educated more and become less, like, racially divided and things like that. I I would like to think that, but we're still working those things out.
Wendi Park:
And and what you've identified, both of you, in your stories is that proximity matters when we get to know people. Yeah. And opportunity to correct or confront with love. We we can actually be in those moments. We're not just assaulting, saying, how dare you do this? And that. We're not gonna actually help create change. But when we can sit and have coffee together
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah.
Wendi Park:
And say, well, this is what I'm thinking. This is what you're thinking. We we glean so much from each other in proximity. However, here's the however part. That's not always comfortable. Right? It means putting ourselves out there, like you said, Shannon, being vulnerable. What are some ways that you could suggest our listeners steps they can take? Maybe they are taking different steps. I would love to hear from our listeners.
Wendi Park:
But what are some ways that have helped you and those in your community get closer and work through things in doing life together?
David Steeves:
Hello? You see?
Shannon Steeves:
I have one. Yeah. Less of, like, a a relational personal thing, but it's something that I've done over the last few years that I found to be helpful. I spent a lot of time on social media. Mhmm. I'm not saying that that's a good thing. Mhmm. But I've challenged myself to follow people that I know don't necessarily think or view the world the same way I do.
Shannon Steeves:
Mhmm. And it's helped me think about things from a different perspective. It's helped me understand
Wendi Park:
why
Shannon Steeves:
I believe what I believe. Mhmm. It's helped me be open minded on those things that are not like, you know, the non negotiables, those other other things. Mhmm. Yeah. And just challenged me to, like, just think about it from a different perspective. Because if I'm all the content I'm consuming, if it's always just this, like, exactly what I wanna hear
David Steeves:
Mhmm.
Shannon Steeves:
Like, where's the learning?
David Steeves:
Yeah.
Shannon Steeves:
Where's the growth? Yeah. Where's the critical thinking? Yeah. Like, what is the what is the cost? Like, just like this this title of the season, the cost of indifference. Like, I think about what am I missing by not taking that step to learn to grow from someone else? Mhmm. You know, even if it's not gonna be that I'm gonna change my opinion on something, I just think about, like, what relationships am I missing out on? What growth am I missing out on? And it's really helped me just in my empathy. Like, you know, this person has a really strong opinion about x y z. And even if I don't agree with it or, you know, whatever, I can see where they're coming from. And thank you, Lord, for
Johan Heinrichs:
Mhmm.
Shannon Steeves:
You know, giving us this opportunity to learn from each other.
David Steeves:
Yeah. I think, that would be good. I think, one for me for sure is just listening.
Shannon Steeves:
Mhmm.
David Steeves:
Just, like, closing my mouth and listening and seeing people's hearts
Shannon Steeves:
Mhmm.
David Steeves:
And noticing their just their tone Mhmm. And where like, in live action, seeing where they're coming from, you begin to realize, like, oh, I wanna say a thing there. Mhmm. Oh, I wanna say a thing there. Mhmm. Oh, why do I wanna say and you begin searching yourself. It's a tool that's like, wow. This is just being quiet helps me Mhmm.
David Steeves:
Grow because I notice where my responses are coming from. Whether it's like, oh, I wanna defend this thing. Oh, wait. No. They're just explaining their POV. Right? I don't need to, like, put up, like, no, you shouldn't have said, right? It's just like sitting and listening, and at the end, almost all the time, I have a very different way of, like, communicating after, like, sitting down and listening. And so I'm like, man, I I learn a lot about who I am, what type of defenses I have, and and what things kinda like, whether it's an insecurity or what, all the different things that kinda flare up from sitting and listening to people talk.
Shannon Steeves:
Yeah. I heard this great quote that I cannot take credit for, this past weekend. The opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is selfishness.
David Steeves:
Mhmm.
Shannon Steeves:
And I was like, woah.
David Steeves:
It's true.
Wendi Park:
In our household, we have this saying MCS. Oh, you're dealing with some MCS. It's main character syndrome when we wanna always see ourselves as the main character and everything else revolves around us. And I think that can often be the case within Christian settings, and it takes some intentionality to get over ourselves and listen to diversity, even things that we can't agree on. But it's a muscle that needs to be developed, and you're right. I love that you brought up the security issue. Secure believers, secure churches, it's not a security on I've got the dogma. I've got the the corner on God's theology so much as I'm securing Christ in the wonder, in the mysteries of working out our salvation and understanding who God is, which will be a lifelong eternal thing.
Wendi Park:
There's room for all of us at this table, and it's not up to us to to have the reservation list of who gets their word in.
Shannon Steeves:
Yeah. Exactly.
Johan Heinrichs:
Well, I think we're gonna end it there. Thank you so much, guys, for coming on.
David Steeves:
You
Johan Heinrichs:
lots to chew on. We're gonna hit up our segment now. It's time for
David Steeves:
Care lingo.
Johan Heinrichs:
I'm gonna throw an audible here. We had a I had a word lined up here for today, but I think we're gonna do a different one because I heard it mentioned a few minutes ago. And I'm like, let's let's roll with that one. We're gonna use the word microaggressions. Now, when I first heard this term, you know, it's it's those tiny things that just drive you nuts. It's those crumbs that fall off your sandwich and get stuck in your keyboard. Micro things that cause you to be angry or aggressive. You know, it's that wedgie.
Johan Heinrichs:
It's like, oh. Or or that dripping tap at nighttime when you sleep. David Shannon, I don't know if you guys have any microaggressions like that. What are your microaggressions if if you're going off my definition here?
Shannon Steeves:
Going off of your definition, oh, it would be when David puts the dishes in the sink instead of in the dishwasher.
Johan Heinrichs:
Oh, newlywed problems.
Shannon Steeves:
Yeah. Newlywed problems. But I have equally as many.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah.
Shannon Steeves:
So I'll raise my hand for that. I'll be the first to say I do as well. No. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be going off of that definition for sure.
Johan Heinrichs:
You got a rebuttal? I was you know
David Steeves:
what's crazy? I wasn't even gonna, like, use a marriage microaggression.
Shannon Steeves:
Sorry. I wonder
David Steeves:
Which is so crazy. So that's fine, though. I'll take it. Microaggression. Goodness gracious, Murphy. Paper straws.
Shannon Steeves:
Oh, yeah. It's the it's it's really the only thing about Canada that you
David Steeves:
don't like. Somebody paper straws. Yes. In that group yesterday, somebody brought Kool Aid jammers, and, like, you can't even stab the thing open.
Wendi Park:
True story. When I go to The US, for meetings and stuff, I pack my bags back with plastic straws at restaurants.
Shannon Steeves:
I don't blame you.
Johan Heinrichs:
Okay, Wendy. What is a real microaggression? I don't think that was the correct definition. So
Wendi Park:
Yeah. Happy to share it. Microaggressions are actually something more subtle and often unintentional comments or behaviors that actually have convey actually an underlying prejudice or a discriminatory tone to it that we are often blinded to from our own experience. We don't mean it that way, but it's towards a marginalized group or towards an other, somebody that isn't like us. And so we might say slighted comments that come off wrong when you're you're the other person. They can often be something that's accumulated over time. They're uncontested, things that people will say, leading to feeling excluded or devalued. It's making the other people feel othered, when we say those things.
Johan Heinrichs:
Alright. Microaggressions. There you have it. Again, thanks so much for coming on.
David Steeves:
Thanks for having us. You guys are great.
Johan Heinrichs:
So listeners, if this conversation resonated with you or made you think of someone that would benefit from this conversation, I encourage you to share it with them. That's how we're gonna grow the podcast. And, hey, remember, you can join us on our Care Impact Facebook. We have the Care Impact podcast group there where we have conversations with each other, the latest news, and you can even get your word in for the CareLingo segments once in a while. So we would love to have you join the conversation there as well. So until next time, remember to stay curious. Thank you for joining us on Journey with Care. To get more information on weekly episodes, upcoming opportunities, or to connect with our community, visit journeywithcare.ca, or find Care Impact on Facebook and Instagram, or just check the show notes for these links and all the links related to this episode.
David Steeves:
Share your thoughts, leave us a
Johan Heinrichs:
message, and be part of a network of individuals journeying in faith and purpose. Together, let's discover how we can make a meaningful impact.
