Second Thoughts | The Plague of Indifference
The Cost of Indifference Series: Episode 4
Previous episode: From Meh to Meaningful – A Cynic’s Guide to Compassion with Troy Lydiate: https://journey-with-care.captivate.fm/episode/s04e03/
Description
How can we combat cynicism and find deeper meaning in our actions?
Host Wendi Park and Co-Host Johan Heinrichs explore this question as they reflect on their conversation with Troy in the episode titled "From Meh to Meaningful." They delve into the challenges of responding to cynicism, the role of curiosity in overcoming presumptions, and their personal experiences with mistrust and wounds. Drawing inspiration from biblical stories like Moses confronting Pharaoh, they highlight the importance of faith, calling, and resilience in the face of indifference. The episode is a call to remain obedient to one's calling, seek wisdom beyond cynicism, and engage in meaningful actions with compassion.
Time Stamps
[05:39] Balancing Faith and Cynicism
[08:14] Embracing Complexity in Faith
[12:23] Learning Through Discernment and Adaptation
[14:51] "Embracing a Higher Calling"
[16:41] Obedience and Grit Over Outcomes
[20:54] Comprehensive Support System Initiative
Scribe Music: https://linktr.ee/scribe_music
CareImpact Podcast Group: https://www.facebook.com/share/g/19rkPGbD7C/
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Johan Heinrichs:
So how cynical is Moses going there again and again, saying, God, you told me to do this. You you've called me to do this. Like, why isn't it working? Why is he still hardening his heart?
Wendi Park:
Oh, yeah. Like, you you say those words, I got goosebumps because it's just like that sense of calling that brought Moses again and again and again. Like, haven't you learnt from the frogs already? Who likes frogs and fleas and oils? Right?
Johan Heinrichs:
This is Journey with Care, a podcast by Care Impact where curious Canadians find inspiration to love others well through real life stories and honest conversations. Hey, Wendy. Welcome back.
Wendi Park:
Good to be back here.
Johan Heinrichs:
We are in our second Second Thoughts episode. That's a mouthful. We're reflecting on our conversation we had with Troy. What a great conversation. The episode was called From Meh to meaningful, a sinning sky to compassion. What are your thoughts just coming off of that interview?
Wendi Park:
Well, I really loved, talking with our friend Troy. We go back quite a few years, so it was just really neat to connect on this topic. And and I have to admit, Johan, that it also challenged me. It gave me some framework. Even going to this last weekend, I just came back from Toronto from a lot of meetings and networking. And and it sat with me throughout the weekend, taking to heart some of the challenges that came out of our conversation saying, how do we respond to cynicism, and why am I feeling cynical? Can I go deeper than taking the cheap seats? And why do people respond cynically to maybe the grandiose God vision that Care Impact might be up to? And is it even possible, this quest we're on, to see the whole church engaged in caring for their neighborhood?
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. I thought it felt like it was a really important conversation for the church in general at this time. I was also, like, it it kept coming back to me over the weekend, and it forced me to think about the areas. Where am I cynical? Where am I not curious? Where am I having presumptions about people and about good ideas. And I think I came to the conclusion that I got some cynicism in me.
Wendi Park:
Join the club, the cynics club. Wait. We have to be gracious. Like, if if our listeners are thinking, well, maybe, yeah, what Troy said resonated with me too or I'm facing that, I think we need to be gracious to ourselves and saying, what is that we talked about? It's a coping mechanism. It's maybe the cheap seats to how we deal with things, but it is a coping mechanism for probably some mistrust that has happened, that we have reason to kind of choose those upper deck seats. There's inner wounds that have not been dealt with that if we like, I don't wanna put my hand to the fire again. I already got burnt once. And so there's a cynicism that we're like, heck no.
Wendi Park:
I'm not going near that again, and it's warranted. So I think there's grace for it. But, Johan, where do you think we can pass through it? Because, obviously, we can't camp in camp cynicism in everything in life because it it it's really not gonna be for the greater good. It's really we talked about it at the detriment of relationships and working through problems. Where do you see a a way through that?
Johan Heinrichs:
First of all, I think you're right. I think behind every cynic and every cynicism, there is a hurt. Right? Someone's been burned in one area or another. Otherwise, they have no reason to be cynical. And I I really like how like, your question you posed, how do we get through that? Troy really brought this to the forefront, and and it's the theme of our podcast. Let's get curious Mhmm. Or stay curious. Those are kind of the things we've been saying over the last few seasons of the podcast.
Johan Heinrichs:
And I really think curiosity is the key to battling cynicism. Just inquiring, asking those questions about, you know, why do you think this way? Why do you wanna do this? What's what's going on behind the scenes? Like, that's gonna battle that cynicism because we're just making assumptions when we're cynical.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. Yeah. And and rather than bypassing around it and just saying, k. I'm just gonna avoid those things. I liked what we had also talked about, just needing that deeper sense of why and leading to a a higher sense of faith. I put it to practice this weekend. When I hear church leaders talking, there was I'll just say it. It was a beautiful city leaders network.
Wendi Park:
There was over 50 people there from 19 different cities. So city leaders that are working on church networks in their city. So very inspiring. But the cynic in me says, but church, wake up. We've been trying to work with you, and you're still in your your little church tense. And how do we land the plane? How do we really create impact? How do we really work with government? But what I felt challenged to is to sit at the table, not because I have higher power or greater insight, but God has empowered us with certain, insights and connections and this calling to bring the church into community and for the community to really influence and inspire the church on what it means to be the church. Faith allowed me to genuinely sit there at the table and smile in the face of some of our greatest obstacles and say, but God, my my faith isn't in convincing people around me. My faith isn't but God has called me.
Wendi Park:
He's given me this invitation to sit in a room of people that are equally called by God. And we're all trying to just find our way through and be able to smile at that because days before, just to put it in context, we can sing Kumbaya as churches and get really wound up and like, oh, great. Look at this way that God has called the church. And that is true. But I also, days before, sat with cynics within government around my kitchen table that are reporting to the ministry in in Ottawa on the plight of poverty. And the cynics around my table said, but, Wendy, do you really think the church there's hope for the church? Have you seen what has happened in history? Do you see how enclosed their minds are and how they're doing damage by not listening to the people? And so I'm sitting both sides of the table and saying, Kate, we need hope outside of this world. And that's what's anchoring me right now and rescuing from my own cynicism. And I'm working it out.
Wendi Park:
I I don't have it.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. And those questions that you mentioned, those are things that that inner cynic speaks to us. Mhmm. And it really chokes out faith. Yeah. And I think that might be one of the reasons why the Bible says take every thought captive.
Wendi Park:
Mhmm.
Johan Heinrichs:
Right? Like, we wanna take those questions, those thoughts, that inner cynicism, and take it captive and say, no. This is actually choking my faith. And you're talking about sitting around a table of leaders. That's one of the my biggest personal wrestles. I'm just gonna be vulnerable here for a second, but I feel like I've had a bad track record of church leaders in my life where, there have been some falling out, sexual sin, and all these sorts of things. And it's like, I'm starting to be cynical of church leaders Yeah. And church leadership. And ultimately, your trust is in him.
Johan Heinrichs:
Our hope is in him. And we don't wanna put too much stock into our leaders. We wanna put all our stock into the word, into Jesus, into our faith. But you gotta still trust people. You still have leaders in your life.
Wendi Park:
Right? But I I think there too, we need to have a bit of grace and reality check there because it is nuanced. I think we wanna say either we trust them or we don't. And I'm not gonna trust an abuser. I'm sorry. I I it doesn't mean I can't forgive them, but I'm not gonna trust somebody who has exploited my gifts and my talents in ministry and have used it for not in a glorifying way. I cannot trust them. And those things are true, and it doesn't mean that we just, like, oh, like, let's just put a Band Aid on that. It's okay.
Wendi Park:
You know? Like, the church is still the church. It's the god And and spiritually bypass that. Those things are true, and it's also true what we're seeing on the other side. You know? And so I feel like we have to be okay with the middle messy and be nuanced in it and yet find healing, yet find redemption, yet find freedom within the yes and, kind of zone where I think we have reason to have filters. I I go into churches with different filters on, not because I'm trying to be cynical and I don't love the church, but I can't unsee what I've seen. I can't unhear what I've heard. And I don't think God calls us to just put it on a shelf and just say, oh, it's not so bad. I think we need to have a spiritual discernment on, like, honoring and drawing out what is good and nurturing those things and not not diminishing or or burying what is bad.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. So there's a wrestle there that I hear when you're saying that. So where do we go from here? Like, we kinda mentioned how we can get through this, and that's through curiosity. But you're holding these two things in tension where you've seen the reality of of what has happened, but you still wanna have faith.
Wendi Park:
Well, if you you think of it as a candy shop, I think or a a store, I think the easiest grab would be for the the eye level shelf of cynicism of the sugar coated candy and saying, oh, let's just grab this. This is gonna be a filler. It's gonna give our us a sugar high. We're gonna feel okay after this. Or the Sour Patch Kids or whatever that just gets that cynicism out of the way, and we just, like, unfiltered, just, like, blow people away and and sort of cancel them or just spiritual bypass is not so bad. That would be the easiest grab on the shelf. But I think if we go lower and we dig deeper, I think what we really need is the nutrition of wisdom and discernment, and I think that's harder because we're gonna have to prepare that. We're gonna have to cook that.
Wendi Park:
We're gonna have to really be intentional about choosing what is good for us in those situations rather than the cheap filler. Cynicism is a cheap way out. It's a cowardly way out, and I'm speaking to myself in that. But where is the wisdom and discernment to say, okay. These things are not okay. I'm not I'm not okay with that, and I don't think God is okay with some of these things. But then what? Is there something, a mustard seed, is there something even at a small level, that is good, that we can honor and nurture? Do where do we see God in the messy? Is God gone and out of this, or is God seeking the righteousness of the people to draw out what is good and to speak out about injustice, take away what is bad, call out injustice, call out unrighteousness, but still with a a heart that's after God that is loving and kind.
Johan Heinrichs:
And I think there's an opportunity for us to get vulnerable in some areas where you're not necessarily exposing yourself to hurt again. Let's say there's a new church initiative and there's that inner cynic in you that says, well, I've seen that happen. That's not gonna work again. Maybe if you just give yourself to that thing, you're probably not gonna get hurt in that situation, but you're gonna give yourself an opportunity to learn from maybe past mistakes and past things that have happened and maybe you'll find a way to grow. I think Yeah. I think there's an opportunity for us to grow in going beyond being cynics and actually try doing some things without exposing ourselves to being burned and hurtled. Yeah.
Wendi Park:
And I think let's learn from our cynical and the wounds from our past and why we're cynical. Let let that be our teacher. Let's not just shame ourselves for, like, oh, I can't believe my heart is, like, so cynical about this. No. Let's learn from our wounds. Let's learn from our mistrust. What is that teaching me? And now it would be stupid just to go into another situation and say, oh my goodness. I didn't know it'd burn me again.
Wendi Park:
Well, you haven't learned. And so how can we learn from those things? And it's okay to have different filters. It's it's not a skepticism filter, like, if we if we aim high. It's like a, what questions would I ask differently so I don't get to the same end? What red flags was I to Pollyanna for that I was just hoping for the best and and that I should be discerning further? Like, we we don't have to beat ourselves up for having been hurt in that way in the past, but how can we ask discerning questions and look for discerning things and be okay with not having perfect outcomes? Be okay to walk away when things just aren't ready yet. This is something that I'm currently working through. Not every church network, not every pastor and leader who loves Jesus is gonna get what it is the depth of what we're doing. They just don't. And it's not an English issue.
Wendi Park:
It's not a marketing issue, although we're trying to get better at at speaking a very accessible language. I can walk into a room and there will be some people that just get it, and I'm like, okay. We gotta keep going deeper. And then there's others that we have these discussions. I realize we're just not going anywhere. And that's okay. It's not a judgment on them. It's just, like, this isn't the right timing.
Wendi Park:
And so my earlier self, my cynical self, would have said, you know, you guys just don't get it. Just, like, shake the dust on my feet. Like, ah. Like, I I that cynical side of me. But now I can just, like, okay. This isn't my timing right now. I'm not gonna put a lot of invested time and energy into that area because I've learned from that. I will be burnt from that.
Wendi Park:
We will go under for people like that, but there is a way that we can flourish.
Johan Heinrichs:
What comes to mind when you talk about that, I I think about Moses trying to get his people released from Egypt, from slavery, and the multiple times that he goes to the pharaoh, and pharaoh hardens his heart. Yeah. And yet he's taken a step in faith because he's being obedient to God. He's doing what God told him. Go to pharaoh and do this, and yet pharaoh hardens his heart. So how cynical is Moses going there again and again? Saying, god, you told me to do this. You you've called me to do this. Like, why isn't it working? Why is he still hardening his heart? And there's still humans involved.
Johan Heinrichs:
Right?
Wendi Park:
Oh, yeah. Like, you you say those words, I got goosebumps because it just, like, that that calling, that sense of calling that brought Moses again and again and again, like, haven't you learned from the frogs already? Who likes frogs and fleas and boils? Right? Like, my goodness, that would be an opportunity for cynicism. But that calling came from above his own willpower to, like, make change happen and be a justice driven, like, I'm gonna, like, put my name make a name for myself. There was a deeper calling that kept bringing him back to the table. And you know what? There's some truth in that. If our calling is greater than the circumstances around, it will get us to do crazy things and keep coming back to the table. You've just challenged me. I need to keep going back to the the pharaohs of our our land.
Wendi Park:
And not that everybody is like that, but it often the the pharaohs in my life are the pharaohs of indifference. This is the the topic we're talking about. The people are like, meh. I love it. Yes. But meh. Can this really happen? But let's keep coming back because
Johan Heinrichs:
And I think we can become cynical of the Lord. Right? Like, it was the Lord that told him to do it. And it's like, really, you're telling me like, it it's failing. So what are those circumstances in our life where we feel called to do something so strongly, and it's like, okay, the Lord definitely has his hand in this. I'm gonna go do it, and then we see it fail. Yeah. I mean, I've been in that situation many times, and I feel like a failure. I'm like, god.
Johan Heinrichs:
I guess I didn't hear you correctly, but no. Like, Moses heard the lord correctly.
Wendi Park:
Mhmm.
Johan Heinrichs:
But, again, like you said, that timing thing. It's that time. The lord's gonna do the right thing. He's gonna soften that hardest heart, and it sometimes it takes human effort. Sometimes it takes him calling us over and over again to keep going at it. Right?
Wendi Park:
And it's that obedience in responding to the call and doing it anyway where we're not doing it for the outcome measurements or the KPIs or the the success in numbers and the accolades of others. That's not necessarily a badge of honor for faithfulness, and that and sometimes or often, that can distract us. That's one of the plights of the church right now where we're we have a marketing issue, you know, and and and the the church is in decline. And and so, like, we need to be based out of calling and obedience and grit to do it anyway and realize that the outcomes are cocreated. The power comes from God, but he also needs us to be as obedient to actually show up and do the impossible. And, Johan, you and I doing the roles we were doing and and a lot of things people might not realize that we we show up for, it might not make sense to a lot of people. But we do it anyway. We get up and face our computer screens at our in our different homes because there's a sense of calling, and we need to keep this to heart.
Johan Heinrichs:
I think that's a good way to end this conversation. For listeners, like, I just want them to sit with that Moses story because it's gonna sit with me now, I think, for a little bit, going back and just being obedient to the voice of the Lord. And let's not be cynical of the Lord.
Wendi Park:
And we've got some maggots in our land in politics and all kinds of things. So that analogy could keep going. So so pay attention to the plagues around you and still keep showing up.
Johan Heinrichs:
Alright. Now it's time for Care lingo. Alright. So this one I posted on the Care Impact podcast group on Facebook. So if you're not on there, you might wanna join because you can make your voice heard. We had a few people chime in on what they think our term today, which is
Wendi Park:
Wrap around services.
Johan Heinrichs:
Wrap around services. Alright. So we had Galena chime in, and she thought wraparound services had to do with kind of wrapping your luggage at the airport, something like that. Yeah.
Wendi Park:
You know what I thought of you, Galena? I took a picture of it in Toronto. I was stuck there. My flight got canceled, and they had wraparound services just for you. They were wrapping luggage. I thought of you. And then there's Kathy who said, isn't that kind of a spa treatment, a chocolate wrap for me? She says. It was a fun play on, words here.
Johan Heinrichs:
Now when I heard the term wraparound services for the first time, I didn't know what it meant. I don't remember what I thought it meant, but here's what I might think it meant if I was hearing it for the first time. So I actually have two definitions like I did last time. I'd like to do two. I don't know why. You know, it's that extra employee at Subway specializing in those customers that ask for a wrap rather than a bun. Oh. That would be a wrap around service.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. I am the wrap around Subway
Wendi Park:
The wrap around artist.
Johan Heinrichs:
Called. Yeah. Wrap around artist. That's it. Now this is my favorite one. You know when you have that worship leader that's a hip hop artist, he grabs that wireless microphone and starts bouncing around the congregation, getting everyone into it. He's wrapping around. He and it's a service.
Johan Heinrichs:
It's a church this is called the wraparound service where we're gonna get our rapper worship leader getting this whole building jiving and bouncing.
Wendi Park:
I saw that in the notes, Johanna, and this is why I don't get it again because I'm not a musician. I'm like, I hope he explains himself, but now I get it. So, yeah, kudos to you. That was
Johan Heinrichs:
Would you go to a wraparound service?
Wendi Park:
If it was Troy. Troy is a really good, rapper. He really is. And I've had him do wraparound in not just in the youth, but with with seniors, and they were into it. So we did wraparound service according to your definition.
Johan Heinrichs:
So Troy, if you're listening, come to Winnipeg and do a wraparound service, and we will show up. We will show up, and we will promote it on the podcast. And this is Care Impact's first ever wraparound service with Troy Lydian.
Wendi Park:
Shameless plug. Find Scribe. He goes by the, name Scribe for his music on any music players.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yes. I'll throw that in the show notes too. Yeah. So Wendy, what is a wraparound service?
Wendi Park:
Well, wraparound service, I guess, it's normal to me. I I wouldn't have thought of all of these different definitions, but it simply means it's it we're looking at the complexity of a situation and looking at it multifaceted. So finding a supportive, village around a individual, a family, or a, group of people that need wrap around support. So you can't just, like, give a Band Aid and like, if you just give them food at the food bank, it'll be fine. But food bank is at the table. We have family services, counseling supports, and churches. Oh my goodness. There's such a need, and this is what got me to quit my job to start this.
Wendi Park:
There is such a place and a need for the church to wrap around families and individuals going through hardship, not in a fix it way, but as part of the solution. And just being in community, that is a wraparound support and how we serve people in a comprehensive way in collaboration with the whole community.
Johan Heinrichs:
There you have it. Wraparound services. Hey. If you got a term that you would like us to decode, jump in on the Care Impact podcast group on Facebook. In the show notes, the link, you'll find it there. Or head over to our website, CareImpact.ca/podcast and send us a message. You can do audio message, text message, all that stuff. Thank you for tuning in everyone.
Johan Heinrichs:
Thank you for sharing the episodes. That's how we grow the podcast. That's the best way is word-of-mouth. Keep sharing with friends and family, and let's get those conversations going at the table. And always remember to stay curious. Thank you for joining us on Journey with Care. To get more information on weekly episodes, upcoming opportunities, or to connect with our community, visit journeywithcare.ca, or find Care Impact on Facebook and Instagram, or just check the show notes for these links and all the links related to this episode. Share your thoughts, leave us a message, and be part of a network of individuals journeying in faith and purpose.
Johan Heinrichs:
Together, let's discover how we can make a meaningful impact.
