Second Thoughts | "ALBAS UP!" - A New Posture for Advocacy | Second Thoughts
The Cost of Indifference Series: Episode 8
Previous episode: The Privilege of Quiet: Advocacy That Lets Others Be Heard with Marie Christian https://journey-with-care.captivate.fm/episode/s04e07/
Description
What does it mean to truly journey with someone?
In this engaging conversation, Wendi Park and Johan Heinrichs delve into the essence of advocacy, emphasizing the importance of relational integrity. They revisit a key dialogue with Marie Christian, exploring the significance of quiet advocacy that lets others be heard. Through inspiring anecdotes and thoughtful insights, Wendi and Johan highlight the nuances of building relationships, the delicate balance of asking questions, listening, believing, and acting—artistically summarized as "Alba's up."
They reflect on the harmony necessary between churches and communities, and the transformative power of authentic relationships over mere programmatic approaches. As they navigate the challenges of telling hard stories ethically, the focus remains on forging deeper connections through CareImpact's innovative CarePortal technology.
Time Stamps
[04:44] Advocacy and Parenting Dynamics
[08:06] Church Leadership Stifles Initiative
[12:25] Empathy-Driven Support and Connection
[14:39] Building Church-Social Worker Trust
[19:06] Ethical Storytelling in True Crime
[20:38] Respectful Story Sharing
[23:55] Empathetic Listening and Belief
[25:50] Care Lingo: 'Withness'
Guest Links
Marie's Episode from Season 2 Episode 9: https://journey-with-care.captivate.fm/episode/sharing-stories-safely-empowering-young-people-in-and-from-care-marie-christian/
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Wendi Park:
Having relational integrity, and that takes work. That is the work, is building relationships. It's not the outcome necessarily. The relationship is the work. It's like going on a train trip. A train trip isn't about the destination. The train trip is the trip. It it is doing it together.
Wendi Park:
It's seeing the sights. It's experiencing life together. That is the invitation.
Johan Heinrichs:
This is Journey with Care, a podcast by Care Impact where curious Canadians find inspiration to love others well through real life stories and honest conversations. Hey, Wendy. We are back back with another second thoughts episode. How are you doing this week?
Wendi Park:
Doing well. It's chilly out here in the camper, but, I do see more sunshine these days, so that is good.
Johan Heinrichs:
So we're taking a step back to discuss our conversation, reflect on it, and share our thoughts about our discussion that we had with Marie Christian this last week. The episode, I think we labeled it the privilege of quiet advocacy that lets others be heard. What has been sitting with you, Wendy, since that since that conversation?
Wendi Park:
Well, there that was a really deep good conversation. I really appreciate. I could really identify with asking myself the question, what is my role alongside others? And she made it sound so simple. Just simply ask, what is it that you need? And and simplifying it, taking the guesswork out of compassion is letting the other person voice what it is that they need. I really like that.
Johan Heinrichs:
And we did have Marie on for season two. It's been a couple years to the date almost, actually, where we had her on. We sat in her office, and she shared a lot of similar things, but really expanded on it on this one, I find. And it it almost feels more timely now that we're having this conversation now. Now we're in this series, the cost of indifference. Like, why are we having this conversation in this series?
Wendi Park:
Yeah. That's a really good question. When we're looking at indifference, you you wouldn't necessarily pair that with advocacy because advocacy can be really good. It is really good. It is needed. But the cost of advocacy when we don't understand how to do it in a healthy relational way can sometimes be taking the voice from people. It's actually not listening to the people. It's trying to fix peep and and voice things that without listening.
Wendi Park:
And so the role of advocacy as we learned last week with Marie Christian is we need to be able to sit, connect, and ask, what is it that you need? Where would you like to go with this? And it's nuance. Right, Johan? I loved how Marie said, well, if they really wanna paint all the lawns in our neighborhood purple, do we just go out and buy a can of paint? What was your thoughts on that?
Johan Heinrichs:
I was wondering if she's held on to that analogy because it seemed pretty brilliant at the time. Like, where did that come from? Because sometimes we we try to be over helping or overcompensating and say, yeah, like, let's do that. Let's run with it. Instead of asking the question about, well, why do you wanna do that? Like, what's what's behind that? What what's your thought process behind that? And I really like the way that she used that analogies.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. Because advocacy isn't just like, oh, if if a person who is in need is voicing what they want is purple paint on all the lawns in the neighborhood, it doesn't mean we jump when they say jump, but it's actually an invitation, a bid to get closer. It's a bid to ask, so tell me more. Tell me more. What is behind all of those things? And maybe there's something that we can connect. I can't be all things to all people. And for some of us, that can be a hard thing to swallow. I want to do so much.
Wendi Park:
I want to care for others, and so let me bend over backwards. But being honest with selves, and I I loved where she went with this finding your authenticity. Who are you, and what has god created you to be, and what role do you have in this? And it it requires some discernment and saying, okay. In that purple paint analogy and in that sense of beautification, maybe I have a green thumb in there somewhere. And maybe you and I can connect over a greenhouse and over purple flowers. I don't know. But that's where there is no formula. It's a matter of having that relational integrity to get closer, to leaning closer, not just say, I don't do purple paint.
Wendi Park:
That's a stupid idea. It's an invitation to get closer in a relational kind of way.
Johan Heinrichs:
And Marie talked about advocacy being sometimes standing in front, beside, or behind. And I don't know, just thinking about this whole purple paint analogy, it makes me think about, parenting adults sometimes. You wanna stand in front, beside, and behind, like I was just thinking the other day, our son was telling us about this one time that he came home from work, and he wants to take a trip to BC to see his cousins. And, like, he bought the plane ticket and all this stuff afterwards. But he was excited about this idea. He comes in, and he's all excited about it. And and we kinda shut him down by asking those parenting questions. Well, how are you gonna afford it? You've never flown before.
Johan Heinrichs:
Like, where are you gonna be staying? And it just shut down that excitement. And afterwards, he came and talked to us and he said, I just wanted to I was excited about this thing and I just wanted to share it with you guys and you just shut it down. So
Wendi Park:
Oh, damn.
Johan Heinrichs:
Sometimes advocacy is like, you try to do the parenting thing. Yeah. But advocacy is sometimes just sharing excitement and then processing it with them and asking those questions again. So what are you gonna do here?
Wendi Park:
Not necessarily imposing your wisdom, your worldview on on them, But, yeah, going deeper. Right?
Johan Heinrichs:
And allowing them to make the mistakes and allowing them to learn and allowing them to grow because when you just parent, sometimes it squashes their growth even.
Wendi Park:
Oh, I'm so with you, Johan. I can so relate. I'm I'm in the trenches right now raising teenagers and having young adults and letting them make choices, letting them discover things for themselves. And let's face it. I don't know all the answers. I but we do come with some lived experience, but limited I have limited experience from my worldview. And so I need to confront my biases. And when there is danger or when there is things that I'm like, I so want to prevent my older daughters, from harm.
Wendi Park:
I have to say, I I do believe, integrally, it comes from a good place of wanting to protect that mama bear. It doesn't go away when they turn they have their eighteenth birthday cake. You wanna protect them, but part of learning to let go and be a champion of our kids is saying, okay. When is it that I can't protect them? I need to walk alongside. Ask those questions and let them make choices, good or harmful or things like that, and say, you know what? Maybe even when maybe my role is to stand behind and pray. Maybe it is to stand beside and ask questions that don't shut down conversations because I know I I'm there too, Johan. It's so easy for me to even in my questioning, I can stand in front in shooting things down and and poking holes through their their, brain development. But let let's put it into a context of churches having compassion within their community.
Wendi Park:
Is it any different, do you think, with those that are struggling with homelessness or addictions or have different lifestyles than perhaps is on their own doctrinal statements, even other denominations down the street. How do we do relationships there?
Johan Heinrichs:
I think even bringing it back to what what we were just talking about. I think churches often do the same thing where the leaders at the top, they'll squash those ideas of those excited people in the congregation that wanna do this new initiative or they wanna get something going in the church even if it has to do with poverty. They ask questions, well, how much is it gonna cost? And where are you gonna do this? Who are you gonna bring on board? You haven't done this thing before or I've seen it done before and it didn't work. So sometimes the church takes that role where they're squashing ideas and not being advocates of their community doing things. And I'm not saying that's for all churches, and I'm not saying that's for every idea either. But we've we've seen examples of this time and time again. So how do we as leaders grapple with that tension of lifting up our people when they're excited about something and then maybe coming back to later and asking the questions or standing behind them or knowing when to step back and letting them take the lead.
Wendi Park:
Well, and I think there's no simple answer to that. I think there's no simple one, two, three step. The key to all of this is that relational piece of going deeper, leaning into each other, learning to find some common denominators. And even in our differences and even in our best intentions, it's a matter of having relational integrity, and that takes work. That is the work is building relationships. It's not the outcome necessarily. The relationship is the work. It's like going on a train trip.
Wendi Park:
A train trip isn't about the destination. The train trip is the trip. It it is doing it together. It's seeing the sights. It's experiencing life together. That is the invitation. And then we also have to look at within the church, we always have. We are at times that happy Helen or the the philanthropic Phil that wants to intervene on.
Wendi Park:
I see that person in Tent City, and I'm gonna rescue them. I'm gonna build them the the house. I'm gonna feed them till they're fat. I I'm gonna do these things because not on my watch are they gonna go in the direction that they're going. But we might have good intentions. But have we stopped to have a thousand cups of coffee with them? Have we stopped to ask, Joe, what would you like and how are you doing? And and tell me about your day. Tell me about the good things that you're excited to wake up to. Are we gonna do the deep work of relational intervention? If there's anything our country needs, it's relational trust based relational intervention.
Wendi Park:
We use that as a a care lingo not too long ago. Listen up if you don't know what TBRI is, but we need trust building relational intervention. Hey. Maybe that's a new one TBRI. We need to be building that. That is the work of advocacy.
Johan Heinrichs:
And we actually talked about churches asking their community what they need instead of assuming. So, again, that comes with relationships sitting at the table with a cup of coffee. And when you ask those questions, it often gets messy. And we talk about being okay with getting messy sometimes and getting real about the messiness. And you know that good intentions often collide with that real world messiness. And this is gonna be a future episode where we're talking about moving from programs to authentic relationships. What are some of those messiest but most beautiful partnerships that you've seen between churches and communities, Wendy?
Wendi Park:
Well, call me weird, but I love the messy. I've learned to embrace it. I'm learning even in my own discomfort that that is the work, and I can't be more excited about why we're doing care portal. Now care portal is a care sharing technology that connects communities together to support individuals in the community, but it could be seen as just a a Kijiji, a a marketplace. Oh, they need a bed, so we're gonna, like, drop off deliver a bed. That's what we're trying to not do. Okay. What I'm excited about care portal is that we're we're training those that are already on the front lines, the agencies, the nonprofits, those that are doing some really good things, interventions, working with people in crisis.
Wendi Park:
We're training them to ask the question, what is it that you need? How can we move things along, not just for you, but with you? And there's some discernment, some vetting that goes along. Right? Like, we're not delivering purple paint to every household. But what are the things that will move you forward? What is it that you would like in order to get your children home, and how can we work this through? Or what is it that you need as your agent got a foster care that would give you a sense of security, that would help you get that job, that would make you feel confident for that first interview? We're inviting social workers and and frontline workers to ask those questions to walk along beside. Not this isn't a frontline intervention. This is a beside intervention. And they're able to put those needs onto the portal. And churches that we're training also in advocacy, what does it look like to come along behind and beside in responding to their needs and being that a relational connection point? It's more about the relationship than what that bed means. Yes.
Wendi Park:
That bed is important or that need is being met in a timely way, but let's connect neighbor to neighbor.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. And you you talk about social workers. Historically, social services and the church have not worked well together. They don't get along. There's a mistrust there. Yeah. And yet social workers have their pulse on what the community actually needs. So if we're gonna ask the community, hey, what do you need? They're a good place to start.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. And we need to build trust and relationships with social workers as well. They are humans. They've gone in there into this career with the intentions and the the desire to care for the most vulnerable. And I can tell you from talking with social workers as I've gotten to know them, they've opened up with me over so many cups of coffee. I think we must be past a thousand by now, with some people. The things that they are exposed to on a daily, and they cannot they cannot explain to others. They cannot respond to media.
Wendi Park:
I'm not saying social service systemically is perfect, but there are people coming to the front lines. They know where the needs are. So when they are walking alongside others and they're identifying something with beside others and advocating for down care portal, What we're training churches to say is, like, to look at at those needs and say, don't try to discern if that is what you think that Johnny Boy needs. Trust and lean into that relationship with the social worker who is inviting you in, and it's a bid for trust. It's a bid for relationships with them and with their clients that they wanna trust you with. So we're working alongside churches predominantly to say, how do we do that well? And so this conversation is crucial, and I encourage everybody to go listen to Marie Christian's, episode if you haven't already because these are conversations we need to be having around our pews, around our kitchen tables, in how we journey with others because we can often get in the way. And we can come up with the most interesting scenarios where we think we're doing good. But I can tell you, I still have that vivid image of a vegetarian newcomer family getting six frozen turkeys at Christmas.
Wendi Park:
We do that because we don't have relationships, and they become a project. And and we can do better, and I've seen better.
Johan Heinrichs:
Well, Wendy, do you have any examples of of seeing better?
Wendi Park:
Yeah. We have thousands of examples literally. We just reached, over a thousand children served, by local churches through the care portal. I know. That's a big deal. And, actually, there's more. This is what we have documented. It's a very transparent, system of how care sharing happens in our country.
Wendi Park:
But, there are so many stories and examples of families receiving care and them feeling seen and heard because they said, you know what? We've been sleeping on the floor, and we were at risk of losing our kids because we couldn't provide. You know what? I I lost a job. I I I couldn't do it. It we were just fell in hard times. And where the church showed up in those timely spaces, they didn't actually know what was needed. And we've taken that guesswork out with care portal, because the social worker has been able to advocate alongside them. And within hours, within twenty four hours, they were all in beds. And and so there's story after story.
Wendi Park:
There there's youth that didn't think they could get that construction job after they've aged out. And within hours, within days, they were responded to by the church knocking on their door and saying, here we are. We we heard you needed this. And and it's just received with such warmth because we're not imposing steel boat toed boots on him, and I'll go get a job. Now, like, pull yourself up by the bootstraps. We're listening and saying, what is it that you need to succeed this month and to see his dreams come true and get to that next step? Because the church wasn't giving them a bouncy castle or a hot dog or come to our men's program. They were saying, here. Just simply, we're here for you, and we hear you.
Wendi Park:
That is just like, you can get addicted to caring, just because you're seeing that relationship happen in real time a thousand times over. We wanna see a million times over across our nation. We can do better by simply listening. And now we even have technology to help us listen better because, let's face it, we don't even know what the needs are. We don't even have mechanisms to listen. We don't have relationships to listen. So we're taking that guesswork out of compassion simply by bringing some technology to help us do better.
Johan Heinrichs:
And we have a ton of stories from care portal. Like, that's you're just sharing a few examples. Yeah. But so we'd be missed to not talk about this subject that was predominant in our conversation with Marie is safe storytelling and ethics. We're asking for these stories. In fact, the first episode that we did with her two years ago is is called telling stories safely or Mhmm. Along those lines of sharing stories safely. Here's a quote Marie said.
Johan Heinrichs:
We wanna make an impact. We wanna touch people's hearts, and we wanna see change happen, but not at the cost of your own mental health, emotional health. So my question is, how could we tell those hard stories that invite compassion without turning people's pain into content? I mean, this is something I wrestle with as a podcast producer. We're working on a kind of a true crime type podcast coming up where Yeah. It really is telling a story about someone's pain. And we don't wanna just find those hard stories to turn them into content for the sake of of doing something edgy or or for the sake of telling a story that are gonna intrigue an audience. We wanna tell stories that are gonna cause transformation, and we don't wanna hurt the storyteller at the same time. Yeah.
Johan Heinrichs:
So how do we tell those hard stories without turning people's pain into content? You know that feeling?
Wendi Park:
Yeah. You you've touched on a really important topic there, Johan. Juice sells. Blood sells. Like, people want the juicy stories. And we have to be careful when we're even inviting people, when we're even asking questions with people going through hardship. You need to earn trust to be shared that those deeper stories and those deeper realities, and and it can be exploitative. And as mama bear to my my children, I know people want they mean well, and they often want the juice of, like, what's going on in your family? And tell me their stories.
Wendi Park:
And I'm like, that's really my children's stories to share. I just get to journey with them, and it's not something I have privilege to disclose. And yet, people going through hardship do need people they can trust and confide in, that they can actually share their story. So part of, like, going back to care portal, part of the the big things that we work on with social services and caseworkers that are in those stories. They're they're living those out alongside these people. They're seeing what is needed, and they're needing some extra community supports. One of the big things that we really land on is how to share stories safely, not giving out too much information, but humanizing the individual. How do we bring the human side of it? When we're sharing other people's stories, how would they feel if you were saying this in front of them? Would it be honoring? Would it be looking at the good, not just the tragedy or that they're a pity case if we're talking about somebody? And then when we're inviting other people to maybe speak in our church, maybe there's somebody that have come into your church that are sharing their testimony.
Wendi Park:
How do we invite storytelling in an ethical way? And you'll have to go back to the the link in the show notes on, Marie's first episode with us on that. But how do we invite people without extracting too much where they're left vulnerable, they're left open gaping wounds because we've invited them to speak it, and yet we don't provide adequate support, relational support, trauma care. Trauma care is crucial to creating that felt safety. How do we do that? We have to check our motives. When we're asking people to share about themselves, is it because we want to know, or is it because we're leaning in inviting them into a safe place? And we have to go at the pace of relationships, not in in our unsatiated desire to know what the the scoop is on their life.
Johan Heinrichs:
And like I mentioned, this other podcast we're working on, that was one of the things that I wanna make sure right off the hop. Like, I didn't really know this person very well. So we started our conversation by saying, hey, what are some of the talking points that you don't want us to touch on?
Wendi Park:
Mhmm.
Johan Heinrichs:
What are some of those off limits areas? And they were honest right away. And I think we're gonna get better stories and more authentic stories when we create that felt safety, which was our CareLingo word last last week. Mhmm. When we create that felt safety for them to be able to share their stories in a safe place. Before we end this conversation, Marie mentioned this a few times, so it felt really important. She had these four words that she was using to describe as a framework for advocacy and good listening. Can you remember those four things, and do you have anything that you want to riff on for those?
Wendi Park:
Yeah. The it's just a really simple way that we can all take to heart. We can all memorize these things. It's four words. It's ask, listen, believe, and act. And so, I would encourage you right now, write it down, like, jog it into your memory right now. Ask. So we've talked about it already.
Wendi Park:
We can ask questions and not just in an inquisitive kind of nosy kind of way, but asking questions that say, I'm here for you. I'm interested in your day, not just about what I wanna get out of this conversation or or out of your story and, not assuming what people need. Just ask people what what is it that you would like, in this situation to happen? And then to listen and truly listen, unbiased listen. We we need to check our biases and and listen just for the sake of connecting and hearing what is behind what they're saying. What is it that they're actually saying that I'm not paying attention to that I need to listen? And then there is believe. We need to believe in what people are saying, believe in them, believe that they have the Imago Dei in them, and that what they are experiencing is their reality and is something that we need to understand in order to appropriately respond. So we need to believe what they're saying. A child, an elderly, an intoxicated person, believe where they're at.
Wendi Park:
And then we need to act. We need to do something. And that we could do many things, but let's not start with act. Often, we wanna start with act. Just tell me what to do, and I'll do it. No. We need to ask, listen, believe, and then act. That's just a response.
Wendi Park:
How does God want you to respond? What is God inviting you into their story for? And who are you? And then how is God asking you to respond?
Johan Heinrichs:
Here we go. ALBA. That's that's your acronym.
Wendi Park:
Oh, ALBA. Yes. Alba's up.
Johan Heinrichs:
Alba's up.
Wendi Park:
Okay, guys. This is a new riff on, Canadian politics here. Instead of elbows up and antagonism, let's go elbows up. I think we could actually run with this.
Johan Heinrichs:
Okay. Now it's time for Care lingo. Our word today is withness, and we got a few people commenting on the Care Impact podcast group. Again, if you wanna comment on any CareLingo segments that we post there or just get in on the conversation, join a group of awesome people because, well, Wendy and I are there. So
Wendi Park:
Come join us.
Johan Heinrichs:
Come join us. It's fun. We wanna grow the group. It'll be fun. Lots of good stuff on there. Withness. Again, so Ashley commented when you need someone to back you up in court, but you have somewhat of a speech impediment, kinda like me. And you say, can I get a? Can I get a? I mean, I'm not making fun of people with a list because I have a little bit of one.
Johan Heinrichs:
So in fact, I had a speech impediment when I was
Wendi Park:
very young. Realize that of you, Johan. So so this is your word then? Would you own this?
Johan Heinrichs:
I could yeah. Yeah. I would own this. In fact, when I was young, I couldn't pronounce consonants. It was all vowels.
Wendi Park:
Oh, wow. Well, here you are being a podcast cohost. So
Johan Heinrichs:
And then there's Kathy who commented, it's someone who is really with it. They have withness about them. Kathy, you are with it.
Wendi Park:
Yeah. She's got some withness.
Johan Heinrichs:
Now my definition I was kinda running with Ashley's before I heard all this, but then I had another one. I'm like, you know what? Those cryptids, we got Loch Ness. You know, when you wanna take a selfie with Loch Ness, you got the lake behind you, and you see Loch Ness in the background. Let's go. I know.
Wendi Park:
Let's go.
Johan Heinrichs:
I know. You take this selfie, you're with Ness. Oh, yeah. He's like, yeah. I'm with Ness right now. Anyway, that's what it could mean. But what does it actually mean, Wendy? Unless you have a offbeat definition.
Wendi Park:
I don't think I could beat those ones. Ashley, Kathy, Johan, like, you you guys got me beat, but, for many people, withness might sound like a a spelling error or something speech impediment, but it it actually is kind of a coined language maybe more recently that we have also included in some of our language. And when you hear us say witness, it really means being radically present with others and and being sort of that advocate but with. Instead of just witnessing and seeing, observing what's happening out there, There's a radical presence about, witnessing what is here, what we are gonna be with. So witness is mean fully engaged with someone or a community in the moment, offering your attention and your support and understanding without judgment, and it's about being there for them. Truly listening and connecting and validating other people's experiences. And, Johan, if there's a word that is more appropriate to our timing in society in North America, we need a lot more withness from the church, from society to be with each other. That, again, that relational building intervention that we need to have more witness.
Wendi Park:
And so I encourage you, try putting it into your day, try practicing it in your day as you see the news, as you're walking down the street, as you're in work, being with your family, witness.
Johan Heinrichs:
And I dare you to try to say witness now without saying it with a lisp because I can't do it right now.
Wendi Park:
Let's make, lisping cool again.
Johan Heinrichs:
Alright. So listeners, if you resonated with this conversation and Marie's conversation, hey, send it to a friend, send it to someone that you think would benefit from this conversation. Sharing word-of-mouth is the way that we can get more people on board with these conversations and take it deeper. Like, let's have conversations around that dinner table with family and friends. And remember to join the Facebook group, Care Impact Podcast Group. And as always, or for the first time, remember to keep Alba's up. And stay curious. Thank you for joining us on Journey with Care.
Johan Heinrichs:
To get more information on weekly episodes, upcoming opportunities, or to connect with our community, visit journeywithcare. Ca, or find Care Impact on Facebook and Instagram. Or just check the show notes for these links and all the links related to this episode. Share your thoughts, leave us a message, and be part of a network of individuals journeying in faith and purpose. Together, let's discover how we can make a meaningful impact.
