Stressed, Overwhelmed and Unseen: Stepping Into a Month in Poverty | Danika Talks COPE
Description
What happens when poverty stops being an abstract issue and starts to feel like your own life? In this episode, Shannon sits down with Danika Peters, CareImpact’s Community Development Facilitator, to talk about the Cost of Poverty Experience (COPE), an immersive simulation that walks participants through a month in the life of a family facing poverty.
Danika shares how COPE was built with people who have lived experience of poverty, why participants quickly became stressed, emotional and deeply invested in their roles, and how the room fell silent when the simulation ended. From social workers to pastors to teachers, people left with their assumptions challenged and their compassion expanded.
Together, Shannon and Danika explore:
What actually happens in a COPE simulation
Why the debrief may be the most powerful part of the day
How this experience changes the way we see our neighbours
Why churches and community leaders need spaces like this to learn, lament and take next steps
If you’ve ever wondered how to move beyond “helping” and into true understanding and shared humanity, this conversation will give you a glimpse of what’s possible.
To learn more or explore bringing COPE to your community, visit careImpact.ca/poverty
Time Stamps
04:17 Interactive Social Services Simulation
08:33 Effortless Group Debrief Success
10:53 Impact of Stress and Helplessness
15:09 Judgment Dynamics Unveiled
19:22 "Empathy Over 'Bootstraps' Mentality"
23:44 "Canadian Context for Poverty Stories"
25:10 "Neighbourly Care, Community Impact"
Guest Links
-
Danika:
This is an immersive experience that is life changing, that is impactful, and that is going to plant seeds and build the kingdom of God in our city and help us get out of our four walls of our churches and love our neighbors.
Shannon Steeves:
Every one of us has a story about someone who showed up when it mattered most. I'm Johan and this is Neighbourly, a podcast about the ordinary ways people show extraordinary care. Every other week, Shannon celebrates, sits down with someone who's lived that out. Real stories of faith, kindness and community in action. So grab your coffee and let's join Shannon at the table.
Johan Heinrichs:
Today on Neighbourly, I am sitting down with my colleague and my friend Danika. She actually serves on our CareImpact team as our community development facilitator. And one of the big pieces that she oversees is the cost of poverty experience, or COPE. And we've talked about this a little bit before on our podcast, but last fall we hosted a COPE with I actually don't remember how many participants, but quite a few. And there were a lot of just really thought provoking conversations that came out of it. And so today we're going to talk about what happens in a COPE simulation and also hear some of the stories from last year's event. So, Danika, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.
Danika:
Thank you for having me. We'll take any opportunity to talk about cope. Awesome.
Johan Heinrichs:
Well, for anyone who hasn't heard about COPE or know what it is, which might be quite a few of our listeners, how would you describe it in your own words?
Danika:
And so the cost of poverty experience is essentially a simulation of what it's like to live a month in someone's shoes who's experiencing poverty. The really interesting thing about COPE is like, this isn't like the only poverty simulation out there, but there's a huge difference that sets it apart from every other one, is that it was built with people with lived experience of poverty and having their voices heard and letting them build it from the ground up. And so it doesn't just, it's not like a let's do this to solve the problem for you, but it really answers that call of, like, nothing for us, without us. It's not anything like a game. And definitely with how it's set up, it's very realistic and it's an opportunity to come and have biases and questions challenged in an environment where, like, people don't have to jump off the deep end right into serving in a community or somewhere where there's people who are living in a different economic bracket or experience that they are, but it's like a safe space to be challenged and ask questions and experience something awesome.
Johan Heinrichs:
And logistically, how does it work? If someone is participating in a cope and they show up, what can they expect?
Danika:
So what they can expect is to learn a little bit about some basic statistics on poverty. We're not just going to not talk about it at all, but what they can expect to come into a room where they're going to be given a folder and there's gonna be a family and their names in there and a little bit of their story. And they get to choose one person that like, this is the person I'm gonna be for the next like hour. And so what they can expect is to make the experience as real as they wanna make it for themselves. Cause it's like you get to decide how much you need to step into someone's shoes. And there's always the option, like if it gets too much emotionally to like take a step back and like just take a breather. But they can expect to learn and engage with the topic of poverty in a way that isn't just sitting in a chair and taking notes, but is very hands on and more of an experience and less of a lecture.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah, totally. It's like an immersive experience. Right. Rather than just watching or. Yeah, like you said, a lecture.
Danika:
Yeah.
Johan Heinrichs:
And so what kinds of decisions, I guess do participants have to juggle in that hour? Like how does that break down? What does that look like?
Danika:
Well, just to backtrack a bit, like I can describe the room because it's like when participants walk in, there's going to be like a bunch of chairs in the middle of the room and then there's also going to be a bunch of tables on the outside, on each table. It's gonna be like a different social service system. We have like the doctor's office, we have government services, we have a school, like different things like that. And then they're going to sit in a chair somewhere and quite possibly be challenged to sit with someone they don't know, not guaranteed. And then in their folder they're gonna get their name tag for whichever family member they choose. And in that folder is going to be a task list. And so it's going to lay out very clearly, oh, you need to go to government services every week or any adult in your family needs to go and buy groceries at CareImpact. And they're going to get an opportunity to see what tasks they need to do and when and There will be like a 15 minute timer up somewhere, like on a projector for them to see.
Danika:
Because each week will be 15 minutes. And you have 15 minutes to do everything on your task list. And during that 15 minutes, you're gonna have to figure out how are you doing transportation and go wait in line to get your transportation pass stamped. How are your kids gonna get to school? How are you gonna get to work? Like, it's not just managing your own individual person. Like you will be in a family unit. And so when they walk in, something they can expect is just like actually their day to day tasks. Anyone does, like going to work or, you know, having to pick up your kid from school. Every once in a while, the facilitator might hand you a card about something that's happened.
Danika:
And it could be good or it could be bad. Like maybe your water heater broke or maybe your kid's acting up at school and now they're suspended. Like normal life stuff. Honestly. It's just that your bank account is going to more accurately represent someone and kind of like how much money they'd be making at the time. And that's just what you have to work with.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. Wow. And so as you facilitated a cope last fall and we started this hour of people going through their weeks, what are some of the reactions or emotions you kind of saw people experiencing as this started? Because I remember what it felt like. But for those that weren't there, what did you see?
Danika:
I didn't expect people to get as into their role as they did. I definitely expected it to take a little bit more convincing. But I think the thing that I mostly saw was people were really stressed.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah.
Danika:
Like, they were like, the timer's going down, I'm waiting in line to get this. Or like, they don't know where their kid is and they're like, oh, no, I didn't realize I had to pick them up from school. Like, people were genuinely like stressed and frustrated. Just, just like, what do I do? Where do I do this? And there was a couple people that like, were like, physically, you could tell they were getting quite upset and flustered or overwhelmed. Like, something I really learned from it is like, whoa, okay, this is like a. This is indeed a simulation and such an immersive experience where sometimes as a facilitator, like, you almost need to tap someone on the shoulder and be like, hey, are you okay? You see people trying to make decisions. Or like, I was the one. Cause I was being trained to be a facilitator.
Danika:
So I was with someone that was experienced. But I was the one handing out the, like, chance cards and handing someone a card where they have to spend like $200, suddenly it's not easy. Or they're like, well, what do I do and what's gonna happen? You're just gonna have to go to government services. And I don't know, as a facilitator, it's just like, could definitely see the stress. And even like resource leaders. So these are people who are representing workers in a school or at government services. They were also looking really stressed. They're like, there's a lot of people.
Danika:
How do we get through them in the time? And I'm like, you might not. It's just, I think it does a really good job of giving a snapshot of what it can be like to live in poverty. Yeah.
Johan Heinrichs:
And after the simulation ends, that's when everyone gathers together. Gathered together for the debrief. And so that's, I think, really where we're going to spend most of our time today is talking about that. What are some of the moments or just stories that stood out to you from participants during that debrief time about what they were experiencing.
Danika:
Yeah. So this was the part I was the most nervous about because it's like doing a large group debrief can be really difficult as a facilitator. And so I was like, okay. I was like breezing through it. And what was surprising is like, the debrief led itself. Typically when you're debriefing with, like, different questions, people will get off track. Or like, sometimes you get someone that's really, really passionate about something and it's like, this is amazing and I really want to talk about it more, but you have to cut the people off because it's like, we don't have the time. I remember my co facilitator asked the first question and we didn't have to ask any of the follow up questions because people were naturally answering them themselves.
Shannon Steeves:
Wow.
Danika:
The debrief was just so heartfelt. People became so vulnerable and it basically led itself. The biggest challenge being the facilitator was just managing, like, everyone getting a chance to say something, but, like, also, like staying on time.
Johan Heinrichs:
Do you remember that first question in the debrief? What prompted all that?
Danika:
Not off the top of my head, but I think it was something like, what was your experience like overall? And it just went from there. Like, again, I don't know the questions off the top of my head because we have to ask them. Like, you can tell People were impacted. Like, even before people started talking, you could tell people were impacted because when the simulation ended, the room was silent.
Johan Heinrichs:
Wow.
Danika:
We didn't have to be like, okay, everybody, like, stop chatting. It's time to answer the question. You know, like that, like, awkward thing. Nope, not once. You could just feel the emotional tension and, like. Like, you could tell there was something that had to be said. Like, it was like a room where you're like, okay, this is gonna be good.
Johan Heinrichs:
Do you remember what some of those people shared about what? You know, did they have beliefs that maybe that were challenged or preconceived ideas about poverty or, you know, what. What was it that stuck with people?
Danika:
Everyone that shared had something challenged or changed. Like, the thing that stood out to me, like, the one that always stands out to me is there was someone who works with Neighbourly social services, actually, and they've been a professional for, like, years. And the way they were impacted is they never thought about what's it like for the child that comes into the room with their parents because they'd taken on the role of, like, a five year old.
Johan Heinrichs:
Mm.
Danika:
And how they were impacted. So they're like, I wanna see that child and I want to help them not feel stressed in that situation. And, like, I was just starting my social work career and I was like, whoa, that's huge. Like, one individual just broke down crying because they're like, by the end of it, my family was, like, evicted and we were sleeping in a bus station. And I just felt so helpless. Like there was nothing I could do and yet I felt so helpless. The emotions they were feeling helped to answer bigger questions of would I want to go to church? The resource leader who had been the pastor at the church was like, I don't think anyone would even really think about it. And my co leader, that was the second question asked, like, how many of you guys thought about going to church? And they were like, I don't have time.
Danika:
I'm just trying to survive.
Shannon Steeves:
Right?
Danika:
It's not that I don't want community. It's not that I don't want to go there. It's the idea is, like, there's only so much time in the week and you can only do so much. And so I think the biggest consensus from the debrief was that depth of emotion and that idea of sometimes you can't change your circumstances no matter how hard you try. I think that was the biggest bias that ended up getting challenged. And just the idea where people are saying, like, I wanna slow down and I want to be more compassionate, or I am gonna be more compassionate when talking to others, because sometimes there's just nothing you can do. It's just the cards you were given. And.
Danika:
Yeah, I think it's just a lot of people, just the emotions and the depth of it, just, like, there's. It's almost hard to put into words because it's just. It's like an experience that you need to be there for, to see it. But, yeah, I think even just looking back on it, I'm still speechless based off of just what people shared.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I remember in my role, I was one of those resource leaders, and I think I don't remember my title, but I was basically like the community connector. Like, I just walked around inviting people to, like, a community event in the park, and people heard that, and they're like, well, that's nice, but I don't have time for that. I'm just trying to, like, make sure my kid gets fed type of thing, and realizing that that's. In this case, it's that we're doing a simulation, but that's someone's reality. Once you sit with that, you can't go back to the way you thought before.
Danika:
No, no. And that is exactly the role you were is the community connector. I remember that. And it's like you were running around, like, it was chaotic.
Johan Heinrichs:
For sure.
Danika:
It was super chaotic. Like, I think pretty much everyone was, like, sweating by the end of it. Yeah. It's just a really immersive experience.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah.
Danika:
Because you were there. Like, was there anything from the debrief that you remember sounding out to you?
Johan Heinrichs:
Well, unfortunately, I wasn't in the debrief. I had to go set up for lunch. I just remember that it was going on for a long time, and I thought we were going to be moving on to the next thing soon. And you guys were still debriefing, which was really cool. I love that. Do you remember what any of the other resource leaders shared in that time? Like, what was their perspective as they watched it unfold?
Danika:
The individual who was our teacher at the school had shared how, like, how hard it was to have so many kids who. Their behavioral issues were probably linked more so to the fact that they were hungry or home was just really stressful and, like, just this idea of how school became, like, the safe space and the reprieve or how stressful it was that some kids, their parents just never came to pick them up. What do you do with that?
Johan Heinrichs:
Wow. Yeah.
Danika:
Another resource leader was at CareImpact. I mentioned how hard it was to be the business owner.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah.
Danika:
Or like our probation officer. Oh, my gosh, did they get into their role?
Danika:
Did they get into their role?
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah, I do remember that.
Danika:
Like, they. They made sure that everybody had to take a number. They made people wait. Like, they really got into the role of, like, what a probation officer is and how they would treat somebod. And it was just like in the debrief, the probation officer shared their side. And then someone that was under the probation officer came and shared after in the debrief. So just getting to hear both their sides afterwards and then being like, oh, no. Yeah, I definitely felt judged by you.
Danika:
Yeah. And I was like, whoa, this is legit. And so I think in the end lunch, people were still talking about it in debriefing after lunch, we had to cut it off.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah.
Danika:
And it was really hard. Cause it was so good. Our post survey response too was pretty much everyone filled out the post survey, which is really hard to do.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah.
Danika:
And so people were buzzing and talking about it. And I even ran into someone the other day, probably a month ago. So basically the other day, basically same thing. Basically same thing. And they're like, oh, yeah, I was there. And there's now this connection too. Like, I didn't think would come. It's like, oh, we went through this, like, really unique experience together where we can actually talk about it.
Danika:
And we did some more debriefing even then.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah.
Danika:
So I think like, the debrief never really ends. It's just like at one point you're like, okay, we gotta stop here, but keep talking.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah.
Shannon Steeves:
Wow.
Johan Heinrichs:
When you think about kind of the bigger picture of this, like, we know that this one cope was so impactful and moving for the those that were there last year. But why does this matter beyond that, like, for communities and churches? Why. Why do we need more communities to, you know, go through an experience like this?
Danika:
I think the biggest thing is I'm coming from like a. Like, I had Been fresh out of social work. Right. Social work student. I'm talking about poverty all the time. I'm talk getting my bioses and my stereotypes changed all the time, and I still felt changed afterwards, and I felt like, oh, man, I'm still carrying biases and stereotypes. Ew. That's probably not a good thing to carry into my career.
Danika:
But I think the biggest thing is this allows individuals to step into the shoes of somebody else and stepping into the shoes of who they might run across in serving at church. Yeah. I think it fosters a depth of understanding that. Honestly. No. Like, not to be bold, but, like, I'll be bold. Like, no Bible study or soup kitchen experience would be able to do. It's a moment to step into the shoes of who we would consider to be the least of these.
Danika:
Yeah. And I think it's important for, like, churches or schools or, like, even small businesses right now. Right. Because the crime rate's been going up.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah.
Danika:
To just be in a space where they're not afraid to make a mistake and hurt someone irreparably and where they can be in a safe space that if it gets too much, they can come and be comforted and, like, take a break and breathe. But I think another really important thing is, like, the experience itself brings community for whoever goes through it. You're bonding with other people through this. Like, you're. You might run, like, Winnipeg's just a giant small town, for sure. You're gonna run into people here and there randomly. But there's, like, a bond that happens and a depth of community that even comes with those that you go through it with.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah.
Danika:
Where it's like, oh, I remember going through this, and my friend had this really surreal experience. I had this surreal experience. And the empathy and compassion that comes afterwards is just beautiful. It honestly feels like a gift.
Johan Heinrichs:
Wow.
Danika:
Because it's like the next time you encounter somebody at your job or on the street or something like that, you aren't running in with no information. You know, like, when you read a news article and you have to see, like, do I agree with this person? Are they being biased? Is this true? Like, is this fake news? Is this propaganda? Like, all those, like, worries and stuff. It goes beyond that to where it's like, I remember when I had to choose between paying my car bill so we could have a working vehicle to get around and save time or buying groceries for the week.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah.
Danika:
And that's the reality for so many Canadians.
Shannon Steeves:
Yeah.
Johan Heinrichs:
This conversation reminds me of. People will often say, you know, just pull Yourself up by your bootstraps type of thing, you know, towards folks that are experiencing poverty or navigating challenges like this. And I think oftentimes there are no bootstraps to pull up on. And experiences like this help us grow in our empathy and our understanding of why that is and that, you know, statements like that don't actually help us to see the other person. And I think like you said, the, the practicality of, you know, many of our listeners are likely connected to a church and being able to just pause when someone walks in the doors of your church rather than, than blame or think maybe they're not doing enough to get themselves forward in life. Just pause and see them and ask, hmm, I wonder what happened to them. But I'm so glad they're here and I want to love them and care for them the absolute best that I can.
Danika:
Yeah. And that reminds me of, I think my favorite thing about the like, the potential and the opportunity that comes from a COPE is having those different stereotypes or like masks that were kind of like honestly taught growing up. Like I know I was taught growing up in school, like the things of this way.
Shannon Steeves:
Yeah.
Danika:
And it gives an opportunity for people who are very different from you to not be a stranger that you're afraid of, but a friendship where there's so much to give on their end too. I think it like helps to like bring that equity in where it's like, hey, yeah, you know what, I have like a six figure job. You don't. And that might be someone that's gonna be the most genuine, best friendship you will ever experience in your life and learn so much from.
Johan Heinrichs:
Right.
Danika:
And that's my favorite thing about CareImpact is this opportunity for people who might have not been friends or might have not built that relationship and gotten to know one another simply because of a bias or a stereotype that we have been taught growing up. Cause this helps to break those back down and to bring in that upside down kingdom that we all so want and that Neighbourly affection that we're like, yeah, we wanna see this and we're gonna do this and this to help do that in a safe setting and where you can debrief after and share about it and then have access to a facilitator that can come out and say, hey, I want to help you do your action plan. Like, let's do it.
Johan Heinrichs:
Yeah.
Danika:
And like put what you've learned into action. Because sometimes you never know what's going to happen. You never know how much of a blessing someone who looks so different from you or is experiencing so many differences from you that could be someone that ends up changing your life for the better and shows you so much of God the same way that you have so much to give to them as well.
Johan Heinrichs:
Absolutely. Danika, for people who are listening and are thinking, like, I would love for, you know, my church staff to go through this or our congregation even, or our team, whatever their context is, what does it look like for them to bring hope into their community? How do they go about that?
Danika:
Well, you're gonna wanna go to our website, CareImpact CA and go to CareLabs if you wanna learn more about COPE and actually hear some of like real life debrief recordings. If you go to the poverty section on our CareLabs page, there's a place to listen and you can hear some of those debrief statements yourself. And then from there, you're gonna wanna book a discovery call through CareImpact. It'll be on the CareLabs area. And that gives you an opportunity to talk to Dorlin to help figure out what size of COPE do you need? How is this gonna work? And we can walk you through the whole process. And then in the leading up to COPE, if you do book it one, you get to hang out with me for three hours, which can be pretty fun.
Johan Heinrichs:
Oh yeah, come on.
Danika:
You know, I'll have our lives changed. I'll get to know each other, build community, have like just a great time being the body of Christ. But in that you'll also get help knowing how to set up the room, what you need to do to prepare. Like, I'll also help walk you through that. And on like day of is when we would come and facilitate. And it is a life changing experience. And it's been Canadianized. So the first COPE we ran was still very much steeped in the American system.
Danika:
And not that it's like insanely different, there's like some minor differences here or there, but changes have been made so that it is a Canadian context. So it's even more relevant now to our context. And thanks to the amazing groundwork that Think Tank did, like it was, the family stories are the same. Cause that's one thing that's not different between us here and across the border is that people are still experiencing poverty. People are still being seen in a way that they're being represented unfairly in the media. And so those stories are one thing that didn't have to be changed at all. And so I think by hosting a COPE get in contact with us, it's like I know I'm gonna be biased, but it is worth every penny because it's not just like a training where people get a certificate at the end and like a high five. Good job.
Danika:
This is an immersive experience that is life changing, that is impactful and that is going to plant seeds and build the kingdom of God in our city and help us get out of our four walls of our churches and love our neighbors and who wouldn't want that?
Johan Heinrichs:
That's right. Well, thank you so much Danica. This has been so fun just to connect and remember this experience and talk about it. If you're listening, like she said, just go to our website CareImpact CA. Go to the CareLabs page and under poverty you can learn more about the details. What does it look like to bring COPE into your community and where to start?
Shannon Steeves:
The stories we share here remind us that CARE doesn't have to be perfect to be powerful, it just has to be present. Neighbourly is an initiative of CareImpact, a Canadian charity equipping churches, agencies and communities with tech and training to care better together. Visit CareImpact CA or to find out more about the podcast sponsorships, being a guest or just dropping us a line, visit NeighbourlyPodcast CA. We'd love to hear from you. Check the show notes for the link or hop on our CareImpact podcast group on Facebook to join our podcast community. I'm Johan. Thanks for listening and keep being the kind of neighbor someone will never forget in a good way.
Shannon Steeves:
Turning over tables Tearing down walls Building up the bridges between the stones of these Turning over temples Breaking off chains When I see you in a stranger I'm no longer slave.
Shannon Steeves:
Tearing down walls Building under bridges between us.
Shannon Steeves:
Sam.
